Gordon Highlander, or Seaforth?

[sgmcgregor]

Hello all,

I have a family of McDonald brothers who all served during WW1, but they all served in different battalions - one in the Cameron Highlanders, and the others were split between the Seaforth Highlanders, and Gordon Highlanders.

As the two brothers are wearing the same uniform, I am assuming that they must therefore be Gordon Highlanders or Seaforth Highlanders, as only one brother was in the Camerons. Can anyone help confirm the identity of the uniform? I have tried searching myself and I'm thinking they are Gordon Highlanders, but it would be good to get experienced members to confirm this (put my mind at rest). Once I know I can be sure of the identity of the men, although it still leaves me wondering which one is which.

Regards,

Steven

[Malcolm]

The badge look like Gordons to me, Seaforth badge would appear thinner.

Aye

Malcolm

[4thGordons]

Not Gordon pattern sporrans for sure, (Gordons are white with black tassels)

The dicing on the glengarries looks like Argyl and Sutherland Highlanders to me rather than either Seaforth or Gordon! (three rows or red and white as opposed to alternating dark squares in the middle row)

They also appear to only have single flashes in their hose (Gordons are doubled)

Having said all that - the badges do look like Gordons - don't seem big enough for A&SH! Any chance of a close up/enlagement of the badges and the sporran cantles?

They are Territorials (they are both wearing the Imperial Service badge on their chest) and pattern 1914 belts so the picture probably dates from late 1914 or early 1915.

Is there any indication where the photo was taken? (photographer on back etc?) I wondered if it might have been taken at Bedford?

Which battalion of the Gordons did the men serve in?

Chris (McDonald!)

[sgmcgregor]

Thanks for the quick reply guys.

I am attaching two close up images, one for the cap badge, and the other of the sporrans. Hope these help. The original photograph is very grainy when zoomed in close on the cap badge, so I don't know if it will be of any help.

I know the photograph was taken in Wick, Scotland by the photographer Johnston in April 1915. Unfortunately I don't know which specific Battalion of the Gordon Highlanders in which the men served, I'm only going by the newspaper articles I have found for them.

The information I have for the brothers in the Gordon Highlanders is from the local newspaper, and is as follows...

Kenneth McDonald apparently enlisted with the Gordon Highlanders but was "medically discharged after being in training for some time", and later joined the Seaforth Highlanders (1916), and ultimately is reported as serving Mesopotamia (1917) and Egypt (1918).

Alexander McDonald was wounded in 1917 and was reported as being in "No 16 General Hospital, Le Treport" in July of that year being treated for gunshot wounds to the back. He was also wounded in April 1918 and was sent to England for treatment for a gunshot wound to his arm, and was again in hospital in France after being gassed in September 1918.

Archibald McDonald was in hospital in Birkenhead, England in August 1918 after being gassed, and it was reported that he had been in France for about 1 year at this time.

Four of the five brothers who served were wounded at least once, a couple of them being wounded three times at various stages of the war.

Regards,

Steven

Here is a close-up of the sporrans.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi Steven,

They look like the 5th (Sutherland & Caithness) Battalion Seaforth Highlanders, formerly the 1st Sutherland Volunteer Rifle Corps.

Aye,

Tom McC

[headgardener]

Cap badge looks like 5th Seaforth. Would match the 'Imperial Service' badges, plus the fact they were presumably from Caithness (5the Seaforth's recruiting area).

[4thGordons]

Hi Steven,

They look like the 5th (Sutherland & Caithness) Battalion Seaforth Highlanders, formerly the 1st Sutherland Volunteer Rifle Corps.

Aye,

Tom McC

Agreed. That is what the badge looks like.

If you look at James McGowan (scroll down) on this memorial site- he is also wearing a glengarry with all red/white dicing.

Chris

[sgmcgregor]

Thanks again,

As they were Caithness men, I suppose it could be possible that they had served with the Seaforth Highlanders as Territorials before the outbreak of war, and maybe they had pictures taken before taking up active service in their later units.

However, all of the newspaper articles covering all of the brothers lists their units as follows...

1 brother was Cameron Highlanders (Donald Mackay McDonald);

1 brother was Seaforth Highlanders, previously Gordon Highlanders (Kenneth McDonald);

2 brothers Gordon Highlanders (Alexander McDonald and Archibald McDonald);

1 brother Royal Naval Reserve, serving at Gibraltar (name never listed, but either George McDonald or John McDonald)

Maybe this picture shows them in their pre-War Seaforth outfits?

Regards,

Steven

[4thGordons]

Steven

As you have noted the picture dates from April 1915 (they are wearing Pattern 14 Belts not introduced until after the outbreak of the war) I think it would be odd for them to dress in pre-war uniforms of a unit other than that they were serving in.

If you have a look at Richard Galley's super site HERE about half way down there are some 5th Seaforths men wearing identical glengarries and sporrans (group with child)

Have you looked at their Medal Index Cards? This might give an order of units.

Chris

[sgmcgregor]

Chris,

Thanks again.

I haven't had any luck at the National Archives website looking for the MIC, there are a large number of McDonald men, and unfortunately when searching on the brothers that were given middle names, I can't get a hit. I think it may require a lot of patience, and pot luck to find the right records.

I'm not sure when each of the brother's enlisted so although the photo was 1915, I was thinking they maybe had photos taken in Seaforth uniforms and then enlisted later joining their various battalions. However, does it often happen that a man may enlist with his local unit, and then later in the war, for whatever reason, transfer to another unit?

Maybe they joined the Seaforths, went away for training, and then later transferred?

Regards,

Steven

[FROGSMILE]

Chris,

Thanks again.

I haven't had any luck at the National Archives website looking for the MIC, there are a large number of McDonald men, and unfortunately when searching on the brothers that were given middle names, I can't get a hit. I think it may require a lot of patience, and pot luck to find the right records.

I'm not sure when each of the brother's enlisted so although the photo was 1915, I was thinking they maybe had photos taken in Seaforth uniforms and then enlisted later joining their various battalions. However, does it often happen that a man may enlist with his local unit, and then later in the war, for whatever reason, transfer to another unit?

Maybe they joined the Seaforths, went away for training, and then later transferred?

Regards,

Steven

This is the badge of the 5th Caithness Battalion of the Seaforths and it certainly looks to be what the two men in the photograph are wearing. It is quite possible that they started with that battalion, but were moved elsewhere, perhaps after wounding, or upon arrival at the IBD at Etaples.

Instead of the Mackenzie tartan kilt and stag's head badge the battalion wore the Sutherland Kilt and the wildcat badge of the Clan Sutherland.

[Lachlan]

The 5th Seaforths, and later the 4/5th Seaforths of the 51st HD, wore a similar glengarry to the Argylls. That goes back to the days of the old 93rd. When the 93rd was formed in 1800 primarily from the men of the defunct Sutherland Fencibles, they adopted the Fencibles' red/white diced Highland bonnet. When the Childers Reforms of 1881 saw the 93rd's merge with the 91st Argyllshire Highlanders to become what we know as the A&SH, the old 93rd's counties of Sutherland and Caithness were lost as recruitment areas and were given over to the Seaforth Highlanders. The Volunteers, then Terriers kept alive the link with the old 93rd through the 5th Seaforths. The badge shows the Sutherland family wildcat, with motto Sans Peur, which also appears on the A&SH collar-dogs, alongside the Campbell's wild boar's head and motto "Ne Obliviscaris".

I wonder if the 5th Seaforths actually wore the issue Argylls' glengarry which had 2 rows of dicing slightly overlapping to show a "Thin Red Line" when looked at from front to back ?

[sgmcgregor]

Thanks again for your help.

I can see that the men must be in Seaforth Uniforms - the cap badge is actually clearer on the original photograph I have, rather than in the close-up which becomes really grainy. If transfers were common, or at least that they did happen, then that must explain the fact that they are later reported under different units.

That is unfortunate for me, as this means the photograph could be any of the four brothers who enlisted with the army. Maybe I'll find some other way of identifying exactly who they are. I'll head back to the local newspapers to see if anything else turns up which will give more of a clue. It would be nice for me to be able to identify them, but it isn't the end of the world if I should fail, as it is just great to have the picture in the first place.

Regards,

Steven

[FROGSMILE]

The 5th Seaforths, and later the 4/5th Seaforths of the 51st HD, wore a similar glengarry to the Argylls. That goes back to the days of the old 93rd. When the 93rd was formed in 1800 primarily from the men of the defunct Sutherland Fencibles, they adopted the Fencibles' red/white diced Highland bonnet. When the Childers Reforms of 1881 saw the 93rd's merge with the 91st Argyllshire Highlanders to become what we know as the A&SH, the old 93rd's counties of Sutherland and Caithness were lost as recruitment areas and were given over to the Seaforth Highlanders. The Volunteers, then Terriers kept alive the link with the old 93rd through the 5th Seaforths. The badge shows the Sutherland family wildcat, with motto Sans Peur, which also appears on the A&SH collar-dogs, alongside the Campbell's wild boar's head and motto "Ne Obliviscaris".

I wonder if the 5th Seaforths actually wore the issue Argylls' glengarry which had 2 rows of dicing slightly overlapping to show a "Thin Red Line" when looked at from front to back ?

I did not know that fascinating information, which is interesting to know. I love little snippets like that as they epitomise so well the concept of the regimental system as it once was. Thank you for posting.