Grenade throwing - how far?

[John_Hartley]

So, how far do you reckon a grenade can be thrown?

I have notes written in an officer's diary of what must have been a practice exercise. The best chucker managed 44 yards. Any documented improvement on that?

[auchonvillerssomme]

I wonder if that practice was from a trench or stood up in the open and what the advantage of distance over accuracy was?

[John_Hartley]

Dunno. It's just a list of surnames with the distances, which vary from 30 to the 44 yards. No date or location. I'm presuming they must be the specialist bombers in "B" Coy, 17th Manchesters. If I had to guess, I'd say this is the second half of April 1916, when they were training at St Saveur - the war diary mentions specialist bombing classes

[Roger H]

The best chucker managed 44 yards.

Crikey - that's not bad. I'd be interested to know of anything better. (Perhaps another event for 2012? - we could nominate who the distance judges might be! )

Roger

[centurion]

I think that grenade throwing from a trench was not very safe practice. Grenades were originally devised in the 18th Century for taking trenches ["Our leaders march with fusees, and we with hand grenades.We throw them from the glacis, about the enemies' ears"].and were still so largely used for this in WW1. See various accounts of bombing down a trench. I remember my father telling me about grenade training between the wars. Grenades were thrown from trenches but only to protect the throwers from the explosions and in one case a trainee managed to throw his grenade straight up so it fell back down into the trench which had magically become vacant (the other trainees having instanly developed the ability to levitate). I've seen accounts of casualties caused by throwing grenades from trenches where the missile failed to clear the parapet and bounced back.

[auchonvillerssomme]

This is from a Small Arms Training Manual.

[centurion]

This is from a Small Arms Training Manual.

Does it say if this is with live grenades?

[auchonvillerssomme]

It is practice grenades, you are right about the dangers of throwing from trenches, there were even questions asked in parliament about the losses from live throwing. One interesting point about the use of grenades is that the soldier 'must watch the fall of the grenade'.

[dycer]

John,

Having chucked a live one,in practice, after having been told of its killing range, cleaning them i.e.degreasing,fuzing, etc I care to forget.The fuzes,scared the sugar out of me as I was told if I held it too long before inserting it in the grenade it was likely to go off, in my hand, and blow it off.

I chucked it at the target,a few yards away,and ducked down behind the sandbags,in case I was within its killing range but hoped it did not misfire because I would have had to go out and make "it safe".

George

[trajan]

John,

Having chucked a live one,in practice, after having been told of its killing range, cleaning them i.e.degreasing,fuzing etc.

I chucked it at the target,a few yards away,and ducked down behind the sandbags,in case I was within its killing range but hoped it did not misfire because I would have had to go out and make "it safe".

George

And????

[dycer]

Tra,

Try cleaning, fuzing and chucking a live 36 grenade and you'll understand why you do not want to go out and "make it safe"

George

[Old Tom]

I too recall throwing grenades in training and vivid instructions on what to do if one was dropped. However remember an episode of 'Dad's Army' when Sgt Wilson did not, as ordered by Capt Mainwaring, fuse their stock because they were dangerous much to the relief of LCpl Jones.

Old Tom

[Tom W.]

So, how far do you reckon a grenade can be thrown?

I have notes written in an officer's diary of what must have been a practice exercise. The best chucker managed 44 yards. Any documented improvement on that?

It appears that 30-50 yards was standard.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zLpJAAAAIAAJ&dq=grenades&pg=PA59#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Piorun]

Little bit like bowling a cricket ball - but let go at the top (and don't try to spin it ). The lever action should produce forty yards with reasonable accuracy. However, as noted, a bombing attack on a trench was a different matter altogether. A

[dycer]

A,

Agreed but the one I chucked,was apparently deadly within a 100 yard radius, in open ground, so it could have as easily killed me,as the thrower, as my intended target, hence the instruction "Duck,behind cover, after throwing the blooming thing"(or words to that effect )

George

[Rob Connolly]

This may be muddying the waters somewhat, but the novel "A Breed Of Heroes" has a character quote that the base plug from a No 36 can kill at "considerable distances, especially over concrete". I take it that the base plug mentioned is the big solid circular metal bit on the bottom of the infernal device?

[IRC Kevin]

This may be muddying the waters somewhat, but the novel "A Breed Of Heroes" has a character quote that the base plug from a No 36 can kill at "considerable distances, especially over concrete". I take it that the base plug mentioned is the big solid circular metal bit on the bottom of the infernal device?

It is. When training with them, (the Mills 36 Grenade was still issued in the 70's) we were told that the base plug could be lethal at more than 50 m and the rest of the bits at more than 30m. Got your attention as, throwing the thing any distance was much harder than would be presumed and guarranteed to land within lethal range of the thrower. Grenades used in training had an 8 second fuse (battle fuse 4 seconds- booby trap fuse instantaneous) and it was compulsory to watch where it fell before ducking down into the trench. All blinds (ones not gone off) had to be detontated with explosives before leaving the range, so you needed to know where it was. The grenade range often turned competent soldiers into complete goons. I have personally witnessed someone throw the pin, still clutching the grenade (quite safe as long as grenade held properly) and much more worrying, someone throw the grenade vertically, causing myself and said goon to desperately try to work out whether it was going to land back inside the trench or just over the parapet.As Dycer probably remembers the regulation way to check the mechanism once you had degreased and cleaned the grenade was to hold the grenade against your chest, base plug off, and detonator out (a most important part of the procedings), remove the pin and let the lever trip. If the grenade was functioning, you'd feel the firing pin hit you in the chest. Even though one knew there was no detonator in the thing, I always found this unpleasant. I'd very much presume that these procedures have not changed much from those developed with the introduction of the No. 5 grenade in 1915.

[bill24chev]

John,

Having chucked a live one,in practice, after having been told of its killing range, cleaning them i.e.degreasing,fuzing, etc I care to forget.The fuzes,scared the sugar out of me as I was told if I held it too long before inserting it in the grenade it was likely to go off, in my hand, and blow it off.

I chucked it at the target,a few yards away,and ducked down behind the sandbags,in case I was within its killing range but hoped it did not misfire because I would have had to go out and make "it safe".

George

I once through a Type 80 that refused to go off. i probably through it about 25 to 30 yards but walking out and back with the range saftey officer it felt like a mile especialy as we both set off back a carl gustav was fired on a nearby range. It was my first and only blind and it was the firat for the nominated safety officer a very young 2nd Lt.

[inkerman]

When I was range conducting officer for recruits live 36 grenade throwing the target was only about 20 yards away from the throwing bay, and our training placed more emphasis on accuracy than distance. there were many occasions when the base plug, or other fragments either struck the control tower or hummed past it. The tower was ten to fifteen feet above the ground so grenade fragments were going upwards and outwards at some speed. The grenade golf course at Sennelager Training Centre emphasised accuracy of throw from cover.

There is Siegfried Sassoon's account of bombing down a trench at the battle of the Somme

[Pete1052]

During World War II U.S. grenades took several seconds to explode from the time the pin was pulled and the spoon flew off. Soldiers were trained to hold the grenade for two or three seconds before they threw it so the enemy would not have the chance to throw it back.

When my Dad received grenade training in California in '43 or '44 the guys went two at a time to a foxhole or berm where a training NCO was in charge. First one guy would throw his grenade and be critiqued by the NCO, then the other guy.

When it was Dad's turn the other guy with him was flinchy and nervous, trembling violently. The other guy with Dad threw his grenade first. As soon as he got the pin out he tossed it without holding it. The NCO had just opened his mouth to chew him out when "KABOOM," the grenade exploded in the air.

It was a dud round that went off prematurely, and if the guy had followed instructions all three guys, my Dad included, would have been killed.

I've tossed a few grenades in my life and I've never much cared for the things.

[8055Bell]

You may find this video interesting - or at least amusing

'In the first lesson in France each man...threw a one live bomb. We threw from inside a trench (bounded by the traverse), over the top to a cleared space. One of us...let the spring force him to leave go of the bomb, and it dropped in the trench. "Get round the traverse quickly" shouted Lieut. M (Mansergh), at the same time rushing to pick up the bomb and haul it over the parapet. Five second fuse, but great courage!...In fact, he was awarded the M.C. in September 1916’ (clearing a burning ammunition store).

Later two men from each Platoon had been selected to attend a Divisional course ‘…a similar accident occurred with a rifle grenade, lives were lost (three, I think).’

These are notes are from Pt. A A Bell, my Grandad, of the 17^th Manchesters. I’d be interested to see how far he was throwing his bombs in the divisional training. The unfortunate deaths may help provide a date for the training day, albeit, the soldiers may have come from a range of units in the 30^th Division.

Tim

[Guest]

In AQOTWF at 2 minutes in German bomb throwers are seen in action. I seem to remember that it is mentioned (in the book) that the men who could throw furthest threw first when the enemy were at the right distance, then lesser throwers threw next. That's pretty obvious though?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ab0_1310678529

Mike

[8055Bell]

Mike,

Thanks for this. It is along time since I saw the film and quite honestly, I need to prepare myself to see this properly. The realistic imagery truly shows the horror of WW1.

Perhaps you should start a thread for video material if it's not already there. It will need a health warning though.

Tim

[Jack Sheldon]

Apropos of nothing in particular, the danger area of the base plug of a 36 grenade was 300 metres, though very few flew quite as far as that. They only stayed in service with the British army as long as they did because there were millions of them to use up and they had a long shelf life. There were several problems with them, quite apart from the base plug. These included, in no particular order, weight, uncertain fragmentation and uneven lethality. Even when they exploded perfectly they produced relatively few large pieces, which had an undesirably wide radius of lethality, because the 'm' bit of its kinetic energy - 1/2 mv2 - was too great. Virtually all modern grenades are wire bound and encased in plastic. This produces a very large number of lightweight fragments which are more lethal, but over a very short distance, so they are safer for friendly forces in a confused battle situation.

As far as the range of German grenades is concerned, I quoted this remark in my Somme book in connection with an attack against Delville Wood on 31 Aug 16, 'Gefreiter Dietrich, a noted grenade thrower from 1st Coy [Jaeger Storm Bn 3], succeeded in knocking out a British machine gun nest which was holding up the advance, by landing a grenade right next to the crew from a range of sixty metres'. So it took a 'noted' thrower to achieve that, it suggests that the ordinary mortal pitched them between 40 - 50 metres.

Jack

[auchonvillerssomme]

The Small Arms Training pamphlet tells us that the 36 grenade can be thrown a distance of 25 to 35 yards and that the 'probable' danger distance may be taken to be 20 yards in all directions although large fragments could have sufficient velocity to inflict injury at 100 yards or more particularly if the burst occurs on stony ground.