Shrapnel

[Tony Ring]

I have a 4 inch length of what I believe to be shrapnel from WW1.

On one side there are a series of bands at one end. The remaining has a smooth area that has very fine lines. The reverse side is very jagged and I can see why such an object would cause fatal wounds.

I am presuming its from an artillery shell but would like to know more if possible.

Thank you.

Tony

[Old Tom]

First, to be pedantic, that is a shell fragment not a piece of shrapnel. Shrapnel was - although now the term has achieved a wider meaning - the quantity of roughly spherical bullets in a shell that was fused to explode in flight. Having said that, there is little I can add the fine lines are the result of the shell being machined and the groves could be where the driving bands( the copper bands which engaged the rifling) were mounted. someone may be able to identify the shell, I'm afraid I can't!

Old Tom

[auchonvillerssomme]

Nah its a lump of shrapnel. The books describing the driving bands aren't always helpful but there are descriptions of British wide driving bands that fit the description, being 6inch howitzers and below. I have no idea about German shells.

[ph0ebus]

I have always heard bits like this being referred to a splinters rather than shrapnel or fragments. As for an identification, sadly, I am of no help.

Daniel

[Tony Ring]

Thanks for the response pals. What ever it is, its now sitting on my desk in front of my monitor and being used as a paper weight.

it came with an old WW1 New Zealand Artillery hat badge that has been "knocked around" and I would like to think came from a field of battle.

If only the items could talk - what a tale they could tell..

Tony

[auchonvillerssomme]

Tony at least with that big lump you know it has been used for its purpose.

[Tony Ring]

I agree. I had an Uncle in the 6th Battery NZ Artillery killed in France on the 18th June 1917.

Maybe drawing a very long bow there is a connection.

May he rest in peace.

Tony

[Rockdoc]

Technically it's not shrapnel because it's a fragment from the body of a shell (probably HE) but the soldiers called it shrapnel. The guns had recuperators, too, but they were buffers to the RA! What's correct and what was used by the troops doesn't necessarily equate.

Keith

[auchonvillerssomme]

Yes and the small change in my pocket is shrapnel as well.

[Rockdoc]

That's true. I use that expression regularly, too.

Keith

[nigelfe]

Ah yes a splinter, typical WW1, on the big side of usefull, not at all cost effective lethality wise, due to shells having too much metal and not enough HE. Still, it kept the casualty rate down.

The feathering pattern is distinctive and can reveal the shell type, this feathering was to stop the driving band rotating and hence spun the shell as it travelled the barrel.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Feathering? I can see the ribs which working with the undercut groove prevent slippage and the driving band being forced off. But as I said in post 3 it is difficult to identify the shell from the ribs, so for example I'm not sure whether these pictures of driving bands relate accurately to the ribs. Thats if it is British of course.

[nigelfe]

Cross sections of the driving band aren't a lot of help in revealing the feathering pattern (I believe that's the correct engineering term).

Since the purpose was to stop the driving band rotating on the shell body the key features of the feathering were various waves, diagonals, features aligned along the shell axis. I suspect there was a WW1 arty int note of some some providing a recognition guide, but I've only ever seen much later ones.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I was going by the term 'ribs' used in the Treatise on Ammunition, War Office 1915, I have always assumed they knew what they were talking about, so I would be interested in seeing the references to feathering used in connection with the attachment of driving bands.

In the picture the cross sections of the driving bands do show ribs on the shells but as I said in my post I'm not sure how accurately in practice they relate to the ribs. The waved ribs were introduced in June 1901 with some exceptions.

[johnreed]

Attachment of Driving Bands

Points Governing Design

Material.

The material for a driving band should possess the following qualities:-

1. It should be soft enough readily to take the rifling.

2. It should not be so hard as to throw an excessive strain on the base of the shellwhen it takes the rifling.

3. It should have a high melting point.

4. It should be so soft as to strip.

5. It should not leave a deposit in the bore.

6. It should not cause smoke.

Copper is generally used in the Service, but it is not entirely satisfactory. It vaporises to some extent, giving rise to a brown smoke, and also leaves a deposit in the bore (coppering).

Other materials are being experimented (this statement from 1915)

Cuprol-nickel (95 parts copper 5 parts nickel) has been introduced as the material for driving bands for use with the latest 6-inch B.L. guns (I presume they are talking about 6in 26cwt)

UNDERCUT GROOVES FOR DRIVING BAND, SHOWING DIMENSIONS OF UNDERCUT

Fig.No 1

Position of Driving Band

The driving band should be as near as the base of the projectile as possible, it being generally found that the more rearward position of the band gives the most accurate shooting. In fact it is limited by the thickness of the metal behind the band which is necessary to support the great strain thrown upon the shell when the band is forced through the groves, tending to tear off the base. In fixed ammunition the driving band must be far enough forward to allow the projectile to be firmly secured to the base.

Attachment of Band

(a) Undercut groove. The band must be firmly attached to the shell so that it cannot be torn out of its groove when it takes the rifling.

Firmness of attachment is secured by undercutting the groove in the shell as shown in Fig. No 1

The band is forced into the groove by a powerful press (Approx 30 Tons psi) and is afterwards turned to shape.

Fig No 2

Fig No 3

( Waved Ribs. Originally, at the bottom of the groove in the shell, there a number of raised ribs which were straight, i.e. running circumferentially round the shell, they were cut away at intervals to prevent the driving band slipping. (See Fig No 2)

© Since June 1901, waved ribs have been instead of of the above (except in 3 and 6-pr, shell which have straight ribs), these waved ribs are not cut away, but have chisel cuts across them to allow air in the channels between the ribs to escape when the driving band is being pressed on.

Shape of the Band

The first portion of the band should be so shaped as to prevent “over ramming” of the projectile.

The band should be designed to entirely seal windage

The rear of the driving band should be shaped to prevent “fringing” or “fanning,” that is, the surplus copper is dragged back by the lands of the gun as the projectile passes down the bore and forms part of a fringe behind the band. When the shell leaves the gun this fringe is no longer supported, and the pressure of the gas behind it turns it up at various angles to the axis of the projectile, thus forming variable resistances and causing irregularity of flight

John

[johnreed]

Fig 2

Fig 3

[auchonvillerssomme]

I am now going to have to count ribs to see if they conform to the instructions.

[johnreed]

Keith

Guns had both a Buffer and Recuperator.

1 Buffer: An apparatus used to check and control the recoil of a gun when firing, this is usually achieved by usuing springs(as in 18 Pr or 6in 30 cwt) or hydraulics.

2 Recuperator: The part of the recoil mechanism that controls run-out, this is usually a hydraulic-pneumatic cylinder where the recoil compresses air(or another gas e.g. nitrogen) which then expands nto return the ordnance to the firing position.

John

[truthergw]

It restores my faith in human nature to see that the Great Shrapnel Debate, like Old Soldiers, never dies.

[nigelfe]

The is no debate about shrapnel, the facts are abundantly clear, like the difference between a shell and a cart case.

As I said I think the engineering term is feathering. Patterns varied between nations, which helped arty int.

[Rockdoc]

Guns had both a Buffer and Recuperator.

1 Buffer: An apparatus used to check and control the recoil of a gun when firing, this is usually achieved by usuing springs(as in 18 Pr or 6in 30 cwt) or hydraulics.

2 Recuperator: The part of the recoil mechanism that controls run-out, this is usually a hydraulic-pneumatic cylinder where the recoil compresses air(or another gas e.g. nitrogen) which then expands nto return the ordnance to the firing position.

John, your knowledge of artillery greatly exceeds mine but this statement makes little sense to me, as an engineer. In essence, the recoil-absorption mechanism operates in a similar way to the suspension system on a vehicle. Yes, the energy absorbed by the compressing spring will slow the movement of the barrel and, providing the springs have a sufficient length of open coils, will bring it to a gentle stop. That stored energy will immediately accelerate the barrel back towards its firing position but, in this direction, there is nothing to slow it down except friction so it will either slam into the stops or yo-yo up and down on the springs - in theory at any rate. The hydraulic or pneumatic part would be used, I'd expect, to apply damping to the spring-driven return, controlling the momentum developed and allowing the barrel to return to the firing position without crashing into the stops and stay there. I've assumed one-way (return) damping but there's no design reason why it couldn't apply in both directions.

Have I got this round my neck?

Keith

[Piorun]

The is no debate about shrapnel, the facts are abundantly clear, like the difference between a shell and a cart case.

As I said I think the engineering term is feathering. Patterns varied between nations, which helped arty int.

Balls. Shrapnel balls. If a shrapnel shell fragments, what are the fragments called? The shell is a shrapnel shell. Its contents are shrapnel balls. The fragmented bits of a shrapnel shells are surely entitled to be called shrapnel just as much as its balls. Splinter or fragment may be the painfully correct term for a piece of shell casing, other than that of a shrapnel shell, but shrapnel is in general usage to describe fragments of HE shells and has been for a very long time - pretty well since Shrapnel invented his shell, in fact. Cheers all, Antony

[auchonvillerssomme]

The problem we have though, and the argument they will use against us, is that generally the shrapnel shell didn't break up, so to counter that I agree and would say lumps of any shell or parts of shell would be shrapnel because they would have the same effect and the language had moved into common use, a bit like hoover for vacuum cleaner.

[Old Tom]

Re Recoil systems. Is it not the case that in simple terms the buffer absorbs the reaction to the discharge of the shell by controlling the rearward movement of the barrel and the recouperator returns the barrel to the firing position. Over the years these two functions have been achieved with springs, pneumatics and hydraulics.

Old Tom

[Piorun]

The problem we have though, and the argument they will use against us, is that generally the shrapnel shell didn't break up, so to counter that I agree and would say lumps of any shell or parts of shell would be shrapnel because they would have the same effect and the language had moved into common use, a bit like hoover for vacuum cleaner.

Agreed. A