boys brigade

[billy201]

Hi there,all ,about the boys brigade. I dont understand why it would have been, anathema, to the founder, sir William Smith , as his Son

George Stanley Smith.Captain Scottish Rifles MC. as secretary of the Boya Brigade, he was latter to be awarded, the MBE, and the OBE

He was a very ptoud menber of the Orange Order, Loyal Orange Lodge No 106 . The oldest orange lodge in Scotland. At the same time

Lord Ruthven, was a honorary grand master, at the age of 76 , he insisted in going back to his old regiment, the rifle brigade. At this time

the number of church minsters who were menbers of the order were very high, the other thing were the bible classes the boys brigade ran

a lot of these men latter joined the order.At this time most of the top familes in Scotland were menbers of the order. It is rekoned that 90

per cent of the orger joined the services, in some lodges the number of men joining was very high LOL62 Campbelltown, 120 brothers, joined

22 paid the price, KILLED. so I dont understand that word that the Pal used about George Stanly Smith, all the very best yours Inniskilling

[Icox67]

Hi. Was browsing the posts and saw this. I am curious, and you may have some insight.

My grandfather went through the ranks of the Boys Brigade in Cambuslang, Lanark, Scotland, winning prizes and awards, eventually the Squad Medal in 1913/14. He enlisted in the 5th Bn Scottish Rifles sometime post-Aug 1914, and was in France by 5th November. His 2 brothers on the other hand, joined the Gordon Highlanders together in Sept 1914. I have never found out why they would have joined a different regiment altogether. Could it be a link to him being in the BB, do you think?

Regards,

Iain

[John Butt]

The Boys' Brigade was a youth movement founded in 1883 for work amongst boys in the churches. Though it modelled itself on the military by having ranks and doing drill (with dummy rifles) it was not founded as a cadet movement. Another organisation the Boy's Life Brigade was set up in 1899 because many of the Free Churches objected to the 'military' aspect of the Boys' Brigade.

The BLB though uniformed did not use dummy rifles.

The Church Lad's Brigade, again started after the BB introduced more ranks and was set up for Anglican Churches.

With the outbreak of World War 1 and against the wishes of the founder some BB Companies formed Cadet Associations with the Army as did the Church Lad's Brigade. A full list can be found in Ray Westlake's excellent book on Cadet Associations.

Quite a number of BB Companies switched to being CLB so that they could be affiliated to the Army before the BB itself consented to do so.

After the war the Churches put pressure on the BB and BLB to unite. This was achieved in 1926 following the decision by the BB Brigade Council to agree to stop using dummy rifles.

Hope that helps with some of the background.

[centurion]

Hi there,all ,about the boys brigade. I dont understand why it would have been, anathema, to the founder, sir William Smith , as his Son

George Stanley Smith.Captain Scottish Rifles MC. as secretary of the Boya Brigade, he was latter to be awarded, the MBE, and the OBE

He was a very ptoud menber of the Orange Order, Loyal Orange Lodge No 106 . The oldest orange lodge in Scotland. At the same time

Lord Ruthven, was a honorary grand master, at the age of 76 , he insisted in going back to his old regiment, the rifle brigade. At this time

the number of church minsters who were menbers of the order were very high, the other thing were the bible classes the boys brigade ran

a lot of these men latter joined the order.At this time most of the top familes in Scotland were menbers of the order. It is rekoned that 90

per cent of the orger joined the services, in some lodges the number of men joining was very high LOL62 Campbelltown, 120 brothers, joined

22 paid the price, KILLED. so I dont understand that word that the Pal used about George Stanly Smith, all the very best yours Inniskilling

Could you put this in plain English please? What would be anathema to whom?

[dycer]

I am an ex-BB(53rd Company,Aberdeen)and proud of it.

As my old and WW2 experienced BB Captain said when trying to prepare us,as young adults,for life."You should think of your childhood as being like a boat in harbour,safe from the elements,but when it,and you, leave harbour,you will experience all the tempests that adulthood brings".

BB Companies,certainly in the early 1960's were run on military lines i.e. Parade and Uniform inspection(the brass button on my pouch was brassoed and the pouch white and unstained,thank goodness for a vintage button fork ) and then marching with a quick change for physical jerks,e.g the pommel horse and parallel bars.

I found it easy,with my BB training,to adapt to TA life,when I joined.I ended up a Cpl in the TA but only attained the rank of L/Cpl in the BB.

I'm sure it was never Sir William Smith's idea that "his boys" would ever be forced to fight for their Country but I can understand why they did and as an old BB man am proud of them.

George

[Patrick H]

I cannot understand the point of the original post! What on earth has membership of the Boy's Brigade got to do with the Orange Order which in itself is anematha to those outside of N. Ireland and Scotland. I have been a member of The Boy's Brigade (1st Warley Company in Essex founded in 1889 and still going strong) for over 47 years and I like many other members am a Catholic! I once attended a Battalion Church Parade in Scotland with my Scottish friends but had to fall out being appalled at the anti catholic sentiments being expressed.

On the military point, whilst Sir William A Smith was a member of the Volunteers, he founded The Boy's Brigade as a Church organisation, only using military methods as a manner of maintaining discipline. It was never his intention that The Boy's Brigade would be any form of recruiting body for the army. My own Company was founded as a result of association with Warley barracks and in the early days the Captain Carey Longmore was able to secure the help of members of The Essex Regiment as instructors in Band etc. After the Great War, Longmore, who had seen 40 of "his boys" die, wrote a powerful treatise defending The Boy's Brigade against accusations of militarianism and as a "recruiting body" for the Army. As to the reference to Companies of The BB becoming affiliated to the Army Cadet Assn this was to most Companies a means to an end, since failure to register as such would result in withdrawal of support financially.

The Boy's Brigade remains an organisation based on its twin pillars of religion and discipline, not on association with sectarian organisations!

Patrick

[Icox67]

While I have no idea what original subject or post prompted the initial post, I appreciate the background that has been provided from all on the BB. I guess I'll never know what reasons, if any, may have prompted my grandfather's brothers to join different regiments to him.

I understand that the BB was never intended as a recruiting ground for the army, despite the military model it followed in the way of rank and parading. Maybe it was a BB Leader who encouraged the boys of his company to join same regiment. Tha nks for the clarification anyway, as I did wonder if the BB had perhaps been approached by the army in an effort to recruit. It would seem not.

Regards.

Iain

[centurion]

Whilst considerable use was made of the scouts on the home front (including security patrols, escorting people to air raid shelters, assisting with the harvest, assisting the fishing industry, air craft spotting and reporting, checking permits in restricted areas, coastal observation, despatch riding, signalling, hospital orderlies, auxiliary coastguard duties (including coastal lights) and even the erection of prefabricated huts for the military) with a formal organisation (usually under the control of the relevant chief constable) no attempt appears to have been made to employ the BB or the other church based organisations in the same manner.

Boy scouts were even used to replace some men as they were drafted into the forces (for example some coast guard stations were 'manned' by one resident over age coast guard and a number of boys (between 14 and 18) on four hour shifts). Some sea scouts even went out on patrol vessels.

[dycer]

I feel I should stress that although my BB Company was affiliated to a local Church it was not a condition,to my knowledge, for membership of the Boys Brigade that you should be attending the Church.

There was at the time,in the Village and probably still is, a thriving Boy Scout Troop and as many of my School Pals, as Church attenders, joined that Organization as joined the Boys Brigade.

It would I suggest be down to Parental choice as to whether you were "steered" towards the Boys Brigade or Boy Scouts.

For girls, at the time, the choice was more limited if they or more likely their Parents wished them to join a Uniformed Organization.It was the Brownies/Girl Guides or nothing.

George

[healdav]

I feel I should stress that although my BB Company was affiliated to a local Church it was not a condition,to my knowledge, for membership of the Boys Brigade that you should be attending the Church.

There was at the time,in the Village and probably still is, a thriving Boy Scout Troop and as many of my School Pals, as Church attenders, joined that Organization as joined the Boys Brigade.

It would I suggest be down to Parental choice as to whether you were "steered" towards the Boys Brigade or Boy Scouts.

For girls, at the time, the choice was more limited if they or more likely their Parents wished them to join a Uniformed Organization.It was the Brownies/Girl Guides or nothing.

George

I too was in the BB in the late 1950s/early 1960s. I do not remember the subject of joining the army, etc ever being mentioned. Frankly, I found the whole thing a bore, but felt trapped as I was the only Company member who was at a Grammar School and quickly ended up at the age of 12 or so helping to run the Company. I used it to do the Duke of Edinburgh's Gold Award, but by myself as no one else was interested.

There was a choice for the girls as there was a girl equivalent to the BB - the Girls Brigade. Don't ask me antything more about it.

The Scouts were, incidentally, an accidental organisation. Smith asked BP to come up with a training scheme for the BB. He did, but Smith didn't use most of it. The rest is history.

Quite right that the Scouts helped in both wars (and Churchill went ballistic when someone said they could not wear uniform when working as messengers int e War Office or when helping test mines - for the Rhine - by dropping them in the Thames).

The BB was, and perhaps is, almost totally absorbed by religion and the Companies only exist when attached to a church, any church. To be an officer you have to be a church member of some sort.

The Scouts is totally secular even though the Promise includes a 'Duty to God' section (any God). Today it causes problems, I say as an ex-Group Leader, but is usually explained as a duty to ethical behaviour.

[dycer]

[quote name='healdav' timestamp='1312812249' post='1627932'

The BB was, and perhaps is, almost totally absorbed by religion and the Companies only exist when attached to a church, any church.

healdav,

I have to accept that point as I still have the BB Bible "awarded to me for perfect attendance in the 1961/62 Session".

George

[Icox67]

Not being ex-BB as some of you obviously are, perhaps you can enlighten me...

I am in the possession of a Squad medal from 1913/14 (I assume year went from July to June) awarded to my grandfather.

What would he have had to do to be awarded this medal?

Thanks, Iain

Squad medal.pdf

[dycer]

I'll hazard a guess.

The BB is/was run on military lines e.g.marching,drill(quick march,halt,about-turn,etc).

In my time,in the 60's, we were encouraged to take on individual development tasks e.g. attend the local Fire Station to gain an understanding of how fires started and the type of equipment needed to put them out e.g.water,foam, chemical,etc. for which we received an individual Badge.

As the Cpl of the Squad that came out on top he was awarded the Badge.

George

[healdav]

I'll hazard a guess.

The BB is/was run on military lines e.g.marching,drill(quick march,halt,about-turn,etc).

In my time,in the 60's, we were encouraged to take on individual development tasks e.g. attend the local Fire Station to gain an understanding of how fires started and the type of equipment needed to put them out e.g.water,foam, chemical,etc. for which we received an individual Badge.

As the Cpl of the Squad that came out on top he was awarded the Badge.

George

I agree, even in my time there was a recognised squad badge for the smartest, eyc. I remember being on a big parade when the inspecting officer (General something) remarked to one boy that having won the badge he might at least have cleaned it!

I'll hazard a guess.

The BB is/was run on military lines e.g.marching,drill(quick march,halt,about-turn,etc).

In my time,in the 60's, we were encouraged to take on individual development tasks e.g. attend the local Fire Station to gain an understanding of how fires started and the type of equipment needed to put them out e.g.water,foam, chemical,etc. for which we received an individual Badge.

As the Cpl of the Squad that came out on top he was awarded the Badge.

George

I agree, even in my time there was a recognised squad badge for the smartest, eyc. I remember being on a big parade when the inspecting officer (General something) remarked to one boy that having won the badge he might at least have cleaned it!

[Desmond7]

Perhaps I can shed light on Inniskilling's original post which I am sure that even he will admit was difficult to understand without context:

He was referring to comments made in a separate posting about the 'Glasgow Highlanders' in which a forum member stated that linkage between the Orange Order and BB in Scotland would have been 'anathema' to the founder of the BB movement. The obvious implication being that the founder would have disapproved of the Orange Order.

Inniskilling states above how he cannot understand why this view should be taken as Sir William Smith's (founder of BB) son, George Stanley Smith was a "Captain Scottish Rifles MC. As secretary of the Boys' Brigade, he was latter to be awarded the MBE and the OBE. Inniskilling states that 'He was a very proud member of the Orange Order, Loyal Orange Lodge No 106 ..'

Now, while he may not have made the clearest posting in the history of the GWF, I have seen worse. Inniskilling is obviously perplexed as to how it can be historically argued that the founder of the BB can be summarily linked to anti-Orange' sentiment. Personally I don't give a hoot BUT if people are honest about it, there can be little doubt that strength of sectarian sentiment in the late Victorian/Edwardian period in Western Scotland (and specifically the industrial belt) was very strong. It would be helpful if someone could come up with any example of speech or writing in which the BB's founder expresses personal animosity or even disapproval of the Orange Order - then it would be perfectly valid to make the 'anathema' statement.

Having looked at Inniskilling's information about the links between the founder's son and the Orange Order, I tend to think that his puzzlement is entirely justified.

I stress again, we cannot judge the political sentiments or even the religious beliefs of men and women of more than a century ago by today's standards. They lived in a vastly different world.

Should Innisklling feel I have not explained his post adequately he should post to that effect.

[healdav]

Perhaps I can shed light on Inniskilling's original post which I am sure that even he will admit was difficult to understand without context:

He was referring to comments made in a separate posting about the 'Glasgow Highlanders' in which a forum member stated that linkage between the Orange Order and BB in Scotland would have been 'anathema' to the founder of the BB movement. The obvious implication being that the founder would have disapproved of the Orange Order.

Inniskilling states above how he cannot understand why this view should be taken as Sir William Smith's (founder of BB) son, George Stanley Smith was a "Captain Scottish Rifles MC. As secretary of the Boys' Brigade, he was latter to be awarded the MBE and the OBE. Inniskilling states that 'He was a very proud member of the Orange Order, Loyal Orange Lodge No 106 ..'

Now, while he may not have made the clearest posting in the history of the GWF, I have seen worse. Inniskilling is obviously perplexed as to how it can be historically argued that the founder of the BB can be summarily linked to anti-Orange' sentiment. Personally I don't give a hoot BUT if people are honest about it, there can be little doubt that strength of sectarian sentiment in the late Victorian/Edwardian period in Western Scotland (and specifically the industrial belt) was very strong. It would be helpful if someone could come up with any example of speech or writing in which the BB's founder expresses personal animosity or even disapproval of the Orange Order - then it would be perfectly valid to make the 'anathema' statement.

Having looked at Inniskilling's information about the links between the founder's son and the Orange Order, I tend to think that his puzzlement is entirely justified.

I stress again, we cannot judge the political sentiments or even the religious beliefs of men and women of more than a century ago by today's standards. They lived in a vastly different world.

Should Innisklling feel I have not explained his post adequately he should post to that effect.

Smith actually came from Thurso (just keep going north). Some of the earliest BB companies were in the area. But I think the first was in Glasgow.

[centurion]

The nursing home to which my wife has recently moved had a fête today and a small BB band played (trumpets cornets drums and two baton twirlers). She didn't feel up to going down to the garden but as they performed in the garden under her window she didn't need to. The repertoire was a little limited but they were good. However I couldn't help thinking that if you took a cornet or so away and added some flutes they could have headed an Orange Order march (in style if not inclination).

They were very good at the last post (obviously a party piece) and played it several times with dramatic drum rolls leading up. Not sure how appropriate in a home full of very frail people.

[dycer]

As an ex-Boys Brigade and Life Boy may I please make a plea, to the Forum,on behalf of the BB's who joined and fought in WW1.

The Boys Brigade had Church attachments i.e the Company was affiliated to its local Church but when the Companies marched together,as a Battalion,we as members of individual Companies never questioned,which Church "sponsored" our counterparts.

The BB motto is "Sure and Steadfast" and nothing more, if you live and die,by its aims, you are and always will be a BB.

George(ex BB and proud of it,who as Church of Scotland was married in the Church of England,saw his Daughter join the Brownies and Guides in a United Reformed Church and is always happy to attend a service in a Catholic Church)

[David_Underdown]

Well I'm third generation (at least) BB. I don't think there was ever any deliberate association with the Orange Order. However, BB companies are usually associated with Presbyterian, Methodist, URC and the low church end of Anglicanism. In areas where sectarianism is/was a problem there's certainly going to be some perceived overlap, particularly in terms of adult personnel. My father was certainly asked by a Catholic colleague in Liverpool "but isn't the BB an Orange organisation?" - my dad had certainly never seen it that way, and it wasn't a concept that really held much sway in the Cardiff of his youth

[healdav]

Well I'm third generation (at least) BB. I don't think there was ever any deliberate association with the Orange Order. However, BB companies are usually associated with Presbyterian, Methodist, URC and the low church end of Anglicanism. In areas where sectarianism is/was a problem there's certainly going to be some perceived overlap, particularly in terms of adult personnel. My father was certainly asked by a Catholic colleague in Liverpool "but isn't the BB an Orange organisation?" - my dad had certainly never seen it that way, and it wasn't a concept that really held much sway in the Cardiff of his youth

I spent 8 years in the BB and had an uncle in it in the 30s. This is the first time I have ever heard anything of thi, and my uncle was in Liverpool.

[dycer]

If we go back to inniskilling's original post he is suggesting that there may have been tensions between Sir William Smith and his Son because the Son as well as being an adult member of the BB was a member of an Orange Order.

To be honest I don't know what the Orange Order is and don't particularly want to know as it may have under or overtones relating to Northern Ireland politics.I appreciate that inniskilling is undertaking research on WW1 casualties of the Order for legitimate reasons.

I can,however,accept that there may been have been tensions between Smith and his Son because the Boys Brigade was founded as a youth male organisation with no political beliefs but under religious guardianship and Smith may have considered that his Son's membership of both the BB's and Orange Order at the same time may have compromised the BB's non-political status.

George

[Desmond7]

Quote Dycer: If we go back to inniskilling's original post he is suggesting that there may have been tensions between Sir William Smith and his Son because the Son as well as being an adult member of the BB was a member of an Orange Order

Have to say I think entirely the opposite. I think Inniskilling is suggesting that the founder would have had no major difficulty with his son being associated with the Orange. I think David Underdown gives a very good assessment.

There is absolutely NO doubt that there was no FORMAL link between the two organisations but as David points out the informal links may have been stronger in areas of 'sectarian tension'.

[Guest]

Although a few years ago the matter of one of the Founder's two sons being in the Orange Order touched me. Have been a very long member of the BB and a captain bfr a great many years and also high up in the Glasgow Orange Order. The reference to LOL106 also touched as I was for 26 years the District Master of Glasgow Martyrs Memorial District No 24 and the oldest lodge was that LOL106 and still know it.  In addition too from many years ago I worked full time for the BB in Glasgow not in Glasgow Battalion but the Scottish Brigade and I was No 2 in the Supplies side (a whole list of depots across Scotland. Although the Scots BBHQ is up near Falkirk nowadys they did have use of part of the Glasgow building for a long time. During my time with HQ one of the 2 Founder's sons was visiting  BB House and I was stopped and introduced to him but cannot recall which so it was and he was a great age. So very interested in this matter of an Orange link!

 

Bobby

[Guest]

Since my last submission way back in 2016 can I add that as captain of my BB company we had a large one and Boys travelled a distance to get to it and we wore the alternative BB tunic shirt style uniform as the lads liked that. I am now even higher in the Orange Order and I would say that all the years I was captain nearly 25 I openly recruited teenagers from both Protestant and RC backgrounds and none of the RC lads were treated any different and got promoted like everyone else. Many of our members who were non-Protestant like many here in Scotland had no great interest in the Church of Rome but totally enjoyed everything about my company the 76th Glasgow. They were just as loyal and had no issues at all of our church links at all.