ander11 Posted 27 July , 2011 Share Posted 27 July , 2011 Hi all recently I have been looking through the Highland Battalion war diary, and I have come across this in the diary. Taken From the 1st of June 1916 - The Battalion recieved an order to take long Khaki trousers into wear as protection against Mosquitoes and sand flies which were very troublesome; It was found necessary to wear trousers by night. I have guessed that my Great Grandfather must have had this picture taken between the 1st of June 1916 - leading up to when he died from wounds on the 22nd of June 1916. To me it's a great shame that we don't have him in a Black watch uniform. Because many people who saw the uniform he's wearing in the picture ,said he can't be Black Watch because they wear Kilts. any thought's on this would be appreciated Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 July , 2011 Share Posted 27 July , 2011 To me it's a great shame that we don't have him in a Black watch uniform. Because many people who saw the uniform he's wearing in the picture ,said he can't be Black Watch because they wear Kilts. any thought's on this would be appreciated Ian Ian, Whilst I cannot see a picture in your post (it has to be under 100kb or hosted externally) so I cannot say for certain the picture you refer to is a BW uniform (as I have no idea!) the absence of a kilt is not a reason to claim it is "not a black watch uniform" there are orders of dress that would have men in trews and duties/orders of necessity that would have them in trousers. Battalion transport section would have worn trousers (tried riding a horse in a kilt?) after the winter of 1915-16 trousers were routinely worn by kilted battalions in extreme weather conditions (and drawers for wear under the kilt [gasp!] were also issued etc The example you mention seems to me to be simply another example of this. To me it seems likely you DO have a picture of him in a BW uniform. So with the caveat that i have not seen the piture to which you refer, I would say to those who say it cannot be a Black Watch uniform because he does not have a kilt on are in my view - misinformed. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ander11 Posted 28 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2011 Hi Chris Thanks for your help, here is one of my first posts I made when I joined the GWF http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=145159&st=0&p=1391243&fromsearch=1entry1391243 In the picture my Great Grandfather is the one standing!!, and I take it ,the other man must have been his friend. I think this picture was taken around june 1916 leading up to his death. Chris you have been good help with your points of view, I wouldn't like to ride a horse in a kilt either regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 July , 2011 Share Posted 28 July , 2011 Ian, Whilst I cannot see a picture in your post (it has to be under 100kb or hosted externally) so I cannot say for certain the picture you refer to is a BW uniform (as I have no idea!) the absence of a kilt is not a reason to claim it is "not a black watch uniform" there are orders of dress that would have men in trews and duties/orders of necessity that would have them in trousers. Battalion transport section would have worn trousers (tried riding a horse in a kilt?) after the winter of 1915-16 trousers were routinely worn by kilted battalions in extreme weather conditions (and drawers for wear under the kilt [gasp!] were also issued etc The example you mention seems to me to be simply another example of this. To me it seems likely you DO have a picture of him in a BW uniform. So with the caveat that i have not seen the piture to which you refer, I would say to those who say it cannot be a Black Watch uniform because he does not have a kilt on are in my view - misinformed. Chris Well said Chris - I second that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 28 July , 2011 Share Posted 28 July , 2011 In the picture my Great Grandfather is the one standing!!, and I take it ,the other man must have been his friend. I think this picture was taken around june 1916 leading up to his death. Chris you have been good help with your points of view, I wouldn't like to ride a horse in a kilt either Certainly not without underpants! Possibly it's long past time to recognise there are some environments in which a kilt is not appropriate no matter how macho the wearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ander11 Posted 28 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2011 Sorry Chris and FROGSMILE For not putting in the picture on this post I was trying to reply to chris when I recieved another answer Sorry Guy's Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ander11 Posted 28 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2011 Certainly not without underpants! Possibly it's long past time to recognise there are some environments in which a kilt is not appropriate no matter how macho the wearer. Centurion "Well said", I couldn't have put it any better Thanks Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 28 July , 2011 Share Posted 28 July , 2011 You have to question the adoption of the kilt in an environment rife with tall thistles and midges........ Perhaps the resultant swellings (I was going to use another word for the effects of thistles, but fear that might be mistaken!) were to impress the lasses? A high price to pay, methinks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ander11 Posted 28 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2011 Hi Kevin many thanks for your views, But I would rather be properly dressed wearing a kilt, as my daughter said my dad goes "commando". And yes the ladies loves it cheer's Kevin Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 28 July , 2011 Share Posted 28 July , 2011 You have to question the adoption of the kilt in an environment rife with tall thistles and midges........ Perhaps the resultant swellings (I was going to use another word for the effects of thistles, but fear that might be mistaken!) were to impress the lasses? Not to mention nettles! Once camping in Glen Afric (Scotland not S Africa) I was forced by the midges to resort to an Aussie type hat with moth balls instead of corks (it worked) - possibly something similar was worn under the kilt? In more serious vein in the Middle East the kilt can cause some serious cultural offence and pre WW1 there were documented cases of missions to senior local officials being effectively shown the door because they were accompanied by kilt wearing soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 29 July , 2011 Share Posted 29 July , 2011 We didn't need moths' balls, C. We had our own. No problem with midges! Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 29 July , 2011 Share Posted 29 July , 2011 We didn't need moths' balls, C. We had our own. No problem with midges! Antony Ha Ha thats a belter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 29 July , 2011 Share Posted 29 July , 2011 Ian, Just a bit about 2nd Black Watch dress. And, reference the Highland Battalion; it is worth bearing in mind that this battalion paraded for the last time on 12 July 1916. So the longevity of the order you referred to is not particularly long. Concerned with the photo you referred to, the soldier in the photo may be Black Watch but he is not wearing a Black Watch uniform. To begin with, the most tangible item of the Regiment is the red hackle and it is not apparent in the left hand side of his Foreign Service helmet. Also, his Khaki Drill jacket, which looks like a good fit, does not have a cutaway for the sporran. The photo also looks like it was taken in a photo studio. In my own estimation, if this is a Black Watch soldier ordered to wear trousers, you would at least see a hackle and a cutaway. It is possibly the case that this is a uniform issued to your grandfather whilst he is convalescing from sickness or wounds or possibly because his kilt, etc., is being laundered. But where is his hackle? 2nd Black Watch - Dress in General The kilt, or shorts, were generally worn by the rank and file of the rifle companies within the Middle Eastern theatre of operations until the summer of 1918 when, in Palestine, khaki drill trousers were issued. Wauchope reports changes in dress features, and there are plenty of photos of 2nd Black Watch men in shorts and kilts orders of dress in With a Highland Regiment in Mesopotamia. Various officers would have riding breeches and a number of soldiers allocated to the Transport Lines (basically modern-day HQ Coy functions) would have trousers (Quartermaster’s staff, et al). That said, regardless of the trousers, they would be wearing Black Watch headdress and other Regimental embellishments, for instance the cutaway. In 1918, even after the khaki drill trousers were issued (which were worn with half-puttees), the kilt was still generally apparent and worn in battle, as this picture taken at Khez Zerkiyeh shows - which is just after the Battle of Megiddo*, 19 September 1918. The chap stood up and lighting a cigarette is Captain Neil Ritchie MC, the Adjutant, later to be General Sir Neil Ritchie. *This battle was fought in shirt sleeves as can be seen in the photo. I hope this is of use. Aye Tom McC [Photo is subject to Crown Copyright] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ander11 Posted 29 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2011 Hello Tom I have found your information very useful to me, as to his Black watch uniform, its a complete mystery why we don't have a picture of him wearing the kilt. I have been read different books about Mesopotamia and I have read many instances with the Arabs removing uniforms of dead soldiers and taking weapons. One officer from one of the other regiments from the campaign, I read about this officer had his uniform stolen 3 times . The possible answer I can think of is that Arabs must have got his uniform, as it was rife stealing anything they could get their hands on Thank you for your help Tom regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 31 July , 2011 Share Posted 31 July , 2011 We didn't need moths' balls, C. We had our own. I think the "B" word above may be the clue. Having been through a few severe stand storms in Iraq, in my experiance they were stinging, almost "sandblasting" like events.... If you had been wearing a kilt, I imagine the answer to "is anything worn under your kilt" would have to have been answered with "Yes, everything" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ander11 Posted 1 August , 2011 Author Share Posted 1 August , 2011 Hello Chris, Thank for your reply , and for letting us know what's its like being in Iraq with the conditions you had put up with !!! My best regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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