Units in Aberystwyth

[David Porter]

Can anyone shed any light on this postcard I obtained recently?

It is unusual as only a few of the men have cap badges and one of them is pointing to a document.

I'd like to know if the unit can be identified from the scant detail. I think it was taken at Rhodfa's Gogledd in Aberystwyth.

[seaJane]

Can't; help with the soldiers but the windows seem to match those in North Parade (Rhodfa'r Gogledd) in 1955 according to this photo: http://www.flickr.co...cot/4264213578/

Gosh I must have taken the bus along that road and round to Llanbadarn many a time in 1983-84...

[David Porter]

Thanks SeaJane, the spelling must be wrong on Google Maps.

If you look on Streetview, the buildings are now Lloyds Pharmacy and the Liberal Democrats office.

Here is a picture

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dogfael/20545597/in/photostream/

[seaJane]

That's definitely the same, isn't it? Do hope someone can help with the men - could it have been a recruiting drive before they were allocated to their battalions or whatever?

[Hywyn]

Given the lack of badges is it possible that they (the caps) were issued in a hurry when the ranks were filled up in Aug 1914 and 2nd Line units etc were formed. I say this because I'm sure that the 2nd Line battalions of RWF TF (certainly 2nd 6th) were at Aberystwyth in the first few months. Of course if they were there then others of the (what later became) 68th Div would be there as well. Maybe someone else can expand on my thoughts about the 2nd line units being there. I can't quite put my finger on it yet apart from newspaper reports of men whom I knew were 2nd 6th being at Aberystwyth in those months.

Hywyn

[daggers]

Brig EA James's 'British Regiments' has nothing for Aberystwyth in any of the battalion locations for RWF, nor SWB, nor WR.

D

ADDED

A very quick skim through the same book revealed no reference to 'Aberystwyth'. Perhaps the squad were visiting from another base.

Smart turnout, apart from absent cap-badges and belts.

D

[jon_armstrong]

The LLT has second line TF battalions of the Cheshires and Herefords in Aberystwyth early in the war.

I would have thought that the lack of cap badges would most likely be because they haven't been issued yet... although among the men who are wearing them, it could be a trick of the light or resolution of the image, but it doesn't look like they are wearing the same badges.

For example, the short man in the middle of the front row looks to have a much bigger badge than the one of the left of that row, nearest the camera.

[David Porter]

There is another picture taken by the same photographer at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~adrianp/parry/pargen3.html

Near the bottom of this page is a nice group shot of 2nd Welsh Field Ambulance from 1915. As has been said this does look like a 2nd line TF unit and the reference to the Cheshires or Herefords is worth pursuing. The shoulder title is far too blurred to be recognised. The page the guy is holding has not been folded so he was either given it or brought it directly to parade (it didn't come out of a pocket). It looks to have text at the top and a set of small illustrations below. Possibly instructions to new recruits?

[David Porter]

Hywyn,

Just to put your mind at ease I have found a reference to 2/6th RWF being in Aberystwyth.

The Pension Record of 3107 Richard Lloyd Roberts has his discharge there on April 17, 1915.

I also found a medical sheet for someone in the 2/7th that had him enlisting in Aberystwyth (which is a possible a half truth).

So far the possible units are:

2/6th Royal Welsh Fusiliers (to 203rd Brigade, 68th Division)

2/7th Royal Welsh Fusiliers (to 203rd Brigade, 68th Division)

2/5th Cheshire Regiment (to 204th Brigade, 68th Division) - Diary of Thomas F. Littler

3/6th Cheshire Regiment

Found an image of them, same photographer, outside a similar house - http://www.first-world-war.co.uk/images/aber2.jpg

Reference in David Kelsall's "Stockport Lads Together". The troops were billeted in private homes and guest houses.

Isaac Deaville died of pneumonia there. Also see http://www.ypressalient.co.uk/William%20Illingworth%20MM.htm

2/1st Herefordshire Regiment (to 205th Brigade, 68th Division)

2/3rd Monmouthshire Regiment (to 205th Brigade, 68th Division)

2nd Welsh Field Ambulance (to 53rd Division)

All these seem to have done a spell of basic training at Aberystwyth - there could be more.

[clive_hughes]

I'm fairly sure the 2nd Line / Reserve battalions of the Welsh Division (TF) were at Aberystwyth after their formation early in the war, but it's strangely difficult to get details. Their early careers don't figure in the ORBAT for 68th (2nd Welsh) Div (TF) because that formation didn't exist prior to early 1916, and the History of the 53rd (Welsh) Div (TF)doesn't mention them much either.

Brig. James' book does in fact mention the 2/1st Herefords as being sent there on 11 December 1914 (they were an addition to the 2nd North Wales Brigade), and so does the 68th ORBAT; but not the others. Long ago I made detailed notes from "The War Book Aberystwyth", a several-volume private scrapbook of events locally which was kept throughout the war by Mr George Eyre Evans, and is now at the National Library of Wales in that town.

The scrapbook makes only vague and tantalising references to the Reserves of the Welsh Division, but maybe there was an element of wartime censorship involved in the press coverage. The Res. Bn. Herefords do get a longer mention, however, as one of the men complained by letter that local chapel ministers were telling the girls not to have anything to do with them!

Their sojourn in Aber seems to have ended in May 1915 when the Reserves were shifted to the Northamptonshire area as the First Line began to be moved off.

LST_164

[David Porter]

Thanks LST_164, details of the stay in Aberystwyth are certainly thin on the ground. However, I did another search in Pension Records for Monmouthshire Regiment and found 2586 Percy Aubrey, who was discharged from the 2/3rd at Aberystwyth in early 1915. I've added this to the list above. It is a surprise that hundreds of troops billeted in the town don't get much of a mention in the local press. The six months they were there would have produced the odd incident or two one would imagine.

I do find this very intriguing as a great uncle of mine was in the 2/1st Herefords from December 19, 1914 and (as I have never seen a photo of him) could well be in that postcard.

[G Jenkins]

Re the soldiers in Aberystwyth, the attached photograph was probably taken at Aberystwyth station in 1914. Some of the faces look similar to those in the Rhodfa'r Gogledd image. These have badges on their caps but as I am no expert in this field I'll leave the identification to others. By the way the photographer may have been the same one. William Jenkins was a beach photographer known locally as 'Will Nell'.

[daggers]

Gunners at the front!

D

[clive_hughes]

Quite possibly these were men of the Cardiganshire Battery RFA (TF), the main local pre-war Territorial unit.

Clive

[Martyn Gibson]

Found this info in my records looking back thought it might be of some interest to you.

Mons Rgt in Aber - Notes from the Welsh Gazette and Cambrian News

1914

Dec 3

It is announced that Aber is to be a training centre for the reserve Welsh Division Territorial Force and could expect between 12000 and 15000 men.

Dec 10^th

The Welsh Div Ter Force is under the command of Lt Col Jones Roberts who is based at 31 Marine Terrace. The force began arriving on Friday 10^th. It is made up of the Cheshire Bde; 4^th, 5^th, & 6^th, Cheshire’s, the North Wales Bde made up of the 5^th, 6^th, & 7^th, RWF and the Border Bde 1^st & 3^rd Mons and 3^rd Hereford, as well as RE, RAMC, ASC. The Mons arrived complete with band on Friday 11, 1914.

Dec 17^th

Currently numbering 7,500, further drafts are arriving daily, the eventual number being over 10,000. The HQ of 1^st Mons will be Salop House, Queen’s Rd. the 3^rd Btn will also be billeted in Queen’s Rd, the 3^rd Hereford’s at Oxford House, N Parade.

Men of the 1st Mons have been “particularly fortunate” in being billeted in Marine Terrace on the prom under the command of Lt Col H P Anthony which consists of 28 officers and 939 men. They are being put through preliminary training such as section drills and route marches. Signalling classes on castle grounds, transmit messages from the castle to signallers on Constitution Hill.

The 3^rd Mons are under the command of Col PB Ford TD of Pontypool and is billeted in Queens Rd. The Btn numbers 850 officers and men.

2000 Cheshire’s arrived by 5 trains.

Dec 24^th

The 3^rd Mons gets most attention from people of the town since it is the only one that has a band and when the whole battalion, numbering approx 1000 men, is on a route march “it is one of the finest sights one could ever see” - the 7^th RWF is preceded by a goat.

The entire length of Marine Terrace as well as many streets is being used for drilling and they will remain in Aber until at least April.

The 1^st Mons are to be clothed in Brethyn Llwyd, at present it is only being worn by officers. It is lighter in colour and better quality than khaki.

Jan 14^th

The military have reduced the allowance to landlords for billeting troops from 3/- to 2/6 per man per day. Other towns (Rhyl) were prepared to receive troops at a rate ranging from 14/- to 17/6 per week and the entire brigade may be moved elsewhere if landlords are unwilling to accept. Landlords complained that with the war the price of food had increased.

1915

Jan 21^st

The 1^st Mons, totalling 950 officers and men, went on a route march from Aber to Talybont (refreshments), Ynyslas and on to Borth (again for refreshments) under the command of Mjr Iestyn Williams. They left Aber at 9.00 and returned at around 5.30. (Around 20 miles).

Feb 25^th(Thursday)

The 1 & 3 Mons and 5^th Cheshires left Aber for Cambridge on Feb 18^th?

The 3^rd Mons gathered outside the town hall and sang Jesu Lover of My Soul to the tune of Aberystwyth before leaving at 9.30 for the station with their band at the head of the column. A large crowd was in attendance.

The band played at Sunday afternoon recitals on Marine Parade.

[clive_hughes]

Martyn,

Some good details there about the 2nd line at Aberystwyth, thanks for posting them.

Re. 24th December, the Brethyn llwyd (lit. "grey cloth") is a vexing subject, not least because no pieces of it seem to survive. I haven't seen it mentioned in connection with any TF units till now, since the main drive to produce it came through the Welsh Army Corps movement (38th Division) - partly for propaganda purposes, partly to offset the lack of khaki. I have heard of an officer wearing a suit of this stuff; but that would be very much a personal decision (at their own cost) and judging by the remarks of the COs of 38th Division, an eccentric choice since they were very conformist when it came to outfitting themselves. TF rankers' uniforms were provided by their county TF Associations, and I doubt whether any of them branched out into contracts for this new material.

One description of the material compares it to "the familiar grey of the Guards' overcoats". It was tolerated by 38th Division, who presented a patchwork of khaki, grey, and Kitchener blue until enough of the standard SD became available. The brethyn llwyd was said to be very hard-wearing, and so was reissued to recruits at Kinmel Park well into 1916.

I have seen descriptions of the material which refer to it as a darker than khaki shade, but I think this is mixing up brethyn llwyd with the private contract cloth which earned the 11th Welsh Regiment the nickname "chocolate soldiers"!

Thanks again,

Clive

[David Porter]

Martyn,

Thank you for posting those extracts. It just goes to show what information can be gleaned from local newspapers. Also that there really was a lot going on in Aberystwyth during those months early in the war. Not sure what "3rd Hereford's" refers to but they billeted in North Parade where the photo in Post #1 was taken. My great uncle, John Porter, joined what was then called 1st (Res) Bn. Herefordshire Regt., on December 19, 1914 and could well be in that picture.

[Rehsob]

This is my first post on this forum so here goes - I suspect Martyn Gibsons post above mentioning the 3rd Mons may relate to the followimg picture of the band, which is a little clearer than David Porters postcard and shows the Mons cap badges.

Do you think this is the same street as that above?

[johnboy]

The ones without cap badges also appear to be wearing gaiters. Drivers?

[David Porter]

Great photo Rehsob

"The band played at Sunday afternoon recitals on Marine Parade." (or Marine Terrace as it is now).

This is a Google street view from outside The Bay Hotel - same curve and mixture of 3 and 4 storey buildings.

[Martyn Gibson]

Yes this is the band of the 3rd Mons. It is a great picture, so clear.

I have a few other references to the 3rd Mons band in Aberystwyth during this period from some of the South Wales Newspapers from the period.

Martyn

[Rehsob]

Yes this is the band of the 3rd Mons. It is a great picture, so clear.

I have a few other references to the 3rd Mons band in Aberystwyth during this period from some of the South Wales Newspapers from the period.

Martyn

Martyn, I would be really interested in any information you have regarding the 3rd Mons band in Aberystwyth. I am just beginning a research project on the history of the Regimental Band of the Royal Welsh so any information would be really useful.

Many thanks

Rehsob

[Martyn Gibson]

No problem Rehsob I will dig them out and PM you with what I have.

Regards

Martyn

[Rehsob]

Martyn

Do you think it appropriate if I post a topic on the 3rd / 2nd Battalion Monmouthshire Bands from 1914 to 1952? I suspect the Band of the 3rd Mons became the Band of the 2nd Mons in 1916 (proving it is a little more difficult).

Interestingly, the 2^nd Mons Band were based at Cwmcarn Drill Hall which was the subject of a brilliant topic some time ago on this forum.

I am aiming to finish my Project in 2014 which hopefully will cover 100 years of the Band since the beginning of the Great War.

I have sufficient information from 1952 to the present day but very little information up to 1952.

My father (William Gordon Bosher) served in the 2^nd Mons Band (and its successors) from 1951 for just over 40 years, I achieved just 7 years.

Any information you and others may have would be greatfully accepted.

Regards

Rehsob

[Hywyn]

This article in the Cambrian News refers to the arrival of the 2nd line units at Aberystwyth in December 1914 (last two columns)

http://welshnewspape...welsh fusiliers

Hywyn