Nepper Posted 20 July , 2011 Share Posted 20 July , 2011 Good evening all. Could anyone help me to identify the patch on the right shoulder of the attached. The subject in the photo is 5038903 Private Ernest Pepper of 2nd Battaltion, North Staffs Regt. The photo was taken in India in 1917. The left cuff is two good conduct chevrons and the marksmans patch above but I can't tell what the other patch is. He was also in the Battalion band hence the 'wings' thanks Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 20 July , 2011 Share Posted 20 July , 2011 That'll be a Bandsmans' badge Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 21 July , 2011 Share Posted 21 July , 2011 What a cracking photo of this North Staffs bandsman - but are you sure it's 1917, as he's a regular soldiers and it has more of a look of pre-war? It's a photo that has answered a question about one of my NF uniforms which also has the white piping to the rear of the sleeves, plus the outer seams of the back, which I'll try to post. The wings are also intriguing, being plain white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 21 July , 2011 Share Posted 21 July , 2011 The rear of the bandsmans 1913 pattern jacket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 21 July , 2011 Share Posted 21 July , 2011 And from the side showing shoulder strap detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepper Posted 21 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2011 What a cracking photo of this North Staffs bandsman - but are you sure it's 1917, as he's a regular soldiers and it has more of a look of pre-war? It's a photo that has answered a question about one of my NF uniforms which also has the white piping to the rear of the sleeves, plus the outer seams of the back, which I'll try to post. The wings are also intriguing, being plain white. 1917 is the date on the back of the photo. Private Pepper was my grandfather and I know he enlisted in 1908 so it could be a bit earlier but not much given the two service chevrons. Also 2/North Staffs had been in India for a long time and were there throughout the First World War, so is it likely that they would have retained a much higher degree of pre-war equipment? Certainly they were deuded of replacements during the war; from a pre-war establishement of 8 rifle companies by the time of the 1915 campaign on the NWF the battalion only had 4 companies (the 1915 strength is recorded in the Battalion War Diary). I'd have thought that equipment would be the same - i.e. scarce forcing the retention of older issue. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 21 July , 2011 Share Posted 21 July , 2011 1917 is the date on the back of the photo. Private Pepper was my grandfather and I know he enlisted in 1908 so it could be a bit earlier but not much given the two service chevrons. Also 2/North Staffs had been in India for a long time and were there throughout the First World War, so is it likely that they would have retained a much higher degree of pre-war equipment? Certainly they were deuded of replacements during the war; from a pre-war establishement of 8 rifle companies by the time of the 1915 campaign on the NWF the battalion only had 4 companies (the 1915 strength is recorded in the Battalion War Diary). I'd have thought that equipment would be the same - i.e. scarce forcing the retention of older issue. Nigel That's interesting, as I know that 1st Bn, DLI served in India throughout, but by the end of the war virtually all of them had been posted back to the 2nd Bn as reinforcements, their place being taken by those fit for garrison duties only(sick/wounded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 21 July , 2011 Share Posted 21 July , 2011 Good evening all. Could anyone help me to identify the patch on the right shoulder of the attached. The subject in the photo is 5038903 Private Ernest Pepper of 2nd Battaltion, North Staffs Regt. The photo was taken in India in 1917. 1917 is the date on the back of the photo. Private Pepper was my grandfather and I know he enlisted in 1908 so it could be a bit earlier but not much given the two service chevrons. Also 2/North Staffs had been in India for a long time and were there throughout the First World War, so is it likely that they would have retained a much higher degree of pre-war equipment? Certainly they were deuded of replacements during the war; from a pre-war establishement of 8 rifle companies by the time of the 1915 campaign on the NWF the battalion only had 4 companies (the 1915 strength is recorded in the Battalion War Diary). I'd have thought that equipment would be the same - i.e. scarce forcing the retention of older issue. Hi Nigel, I think it's very plausible that the regimental band would retain the 'old' uniforms for ceremonial occasions. I would tend to agree with Graham about the photo looking like it's pre-war. Clearly, if it says 1917 on the back, and the writing is contemporary, then it's reasonable to accept it as the date the photo was taken. His hair style, with the slightly 'flicked' fringe is very typical of the pre-war period. Obviously he could just have a rather 'dated' hair-cut! His 2 GC chevrons date it as being anytime from 1913 onwards. If it wasn't for the date on the back of the photo I'd have placed this image at exactly that time. And his regimental number appears to date from the post-war period (a 'unified' numbering system covering all regiments was introduced in 1920). He must have had a different service number during WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 21 July , 2011 Share Posted 21 July , 2011 He must have had a different service number during WW1. Agreed, and it would appear to have been 9057. Description Medal card of Pepper, Ernest Corps Regiment No Rank North Staffordshire Regiment 9057 Private North Staffordshire Regiment 5038903 Private Date 1914-1920 Catalogue reference WO 372/15 Paul Nixon's excellent "Army Service Numbers 1881-1918" blog puts the date #9057 was issued as being between 13th January 1908 (#8697) and 10th August 1909 (#9209). edit: A quick check of surviving records on Ancestry and FindmyPast shows #9054 Attested on 30th December 1908 and was Approved on 4th January 1909 and #9056 Attested and was Approved on 5th January 1909. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 21 July , 2011 Share Posted 21 July , 2011 His Medal Index Card shows he was awarded the British War Medal, Victory Medal, 1914/15 Star and the Indian General Service medal with "Afghanistan NWF 1919" Clasp. The theatre and date of entry into same, for the award of the 1914-15 Star, is shown as 5f (Asiatic) and "before 1.1.16". 5f (Asiatic) indicates "In the Tochi Valley, including the whole of the North Waziristan Political Agency and Barajat, between 28th November, 1914 and 27th March, 1915, both dates inclusive." The Afghanistan NWF Clasp to the IGSM was issued for operations between 6th May and 30th September 1919 so he would appear to have spent the entire war out in India. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepper Posted 21 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2011 His Medal Index Card shows he was awarded the British War Medal, Victory Medal, 1914/15 Star and the Indian General Service medal with "Afghanistan NWF 1919" Clasp. The theatre and date of entry into same, for the award of the 1914-15 Star, is shown as 5f (Asiatic) and "before 1.1.16". 5f (Asiatic) indicates "In the Tochi Valley, including the whole of the North Waziristan Political Agency and Barajat, between 28th November, 1914 and 27th March, 1915, both dates inclusive." The Afghanistan NWF Clasp to the IGSM was issued for operations between 6th May and 30th September 1919 so he would appear to have spent the entire war out in India. Regards Steve During the 3rd Afghan War he was wounded and hospitalised for some time before rejoining the battalion. He then served in the Sudan before his enlistment expired. On return home because he had an exemplary or v good conduct record he became a postman under the scheme reserving places for ex-servicemen (London Gazetted issue 32598 3rd February 1922 page 979). In 1950 due to his length of service with the GPO he was awarded the Imperial Service Medal. I have his full set of medals. Regarding the date on the photo - it's entirely possible that 1917 relates to the date he sent it home and it could well have been taken earlier. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 July , 2011 Share Posted 25 July , 2011 What a cracking photo of this North Staffs bandsman - but are you sure it's 1917, as he's a regular soldiers and it has more of a look of pre-war? It's a photo that has answered a question about one of my NF uniforms which also has the white piping to the rear of the sleeves, plus the outer seams of the back, which I'll try to post. The wings are also intriguing, being plain white. I've never seen plain white wings before either, but they go reasonably well with the white facings. I wonder if they were made up locally due to a shortage of the regulation issue. It would be corroboration of wider issue to learn if any other regiment wore them, or if they are literally a one-off. It is indeed a cracking and fascinating photo and many thanks to Nigel for posting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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