trade badges

[N.S.Regt.]

Hi I have been trying to collect cloth trade badges for a while you do not see many ww1 examples. I am including a few scans of some I have and would like to encourage others to do the same. I only have a few examples and would like to see others. Below are some for the army top to bottom left to right are 1 grenade thrower early version 2 grenade thrower late version 3 maxim machine gunner 4 trench motar battery 5 unknown some help with this one please. 6 pipers

[N.S.Regt.]

1 Not sure if a trade badge as I have seen tunics with one on each arm facing left and right 2 strecher bearer 3 gun layer 4 artillery observer.

[N.S.Regt.]

Below are a signals armband and a trade badge.

Thanks for looking

N.S.Regt.

[Koots]

Here's a stretcher bearers armband. It's part of an album put together by a member of the 75th Bn. CEF. I've hesitated in posting one in such poor condition. But here goes. I also wished to show the stitching that went into the construction.

Best Regards

HQ7

[Koots]

Here's the stitching.

[N.S.Regt.]

HQ7

I would not be hesitant to show it has that been there look. I have seen a few examples of the medical armband there seem to be a lot a differences in construction. I never picked one up because I could not say for sure if it was WW1 or not. I have seen dated ones but none for sale. Most of the peices above were part of a ww1 vet's belongings not all to the same guy of course. It is nice to be able to put a name on a peice such as yours.

[Bill Alexander]

Trade or proficiency badges are an area of collecting in themselves. They are a fascinating study and full of confusion and controversy from the collector's perspective. Trade badges can be classified in several ways. There are qualifications badges, skill at arms badges, appointment badges and intstructor's badges. In the images that NS Regt has provided, there are examples of qualifications badges in the signallers badges, and stretcher bearer. Appointment badges are seen in the piper's badge and the observers "O". Skill at arms are represented by the grenade throwers badges and the gun layers badge. This last example, the gun layer badge, is likely a "prize" badge, awarded for proficiency in artillery, in this case the Canadian artillery. There is some confusion over the provenance of this badge, as there is some evidence that it was not awarded until after WWI.

Confusion creeps in with badges like the maxim maching gunner, is it a skill at arms, or a qualification badge, or something of both? Many proficiency badges are both. The artillery cannon is an example of one. Worn in one place on the uniform it represents skills, while above the rank chevrons it is associated with appointment in the artillery. (Which really seems to distinguish an artillery sergeant from an infantry or other corps sergeant.)

The unidentified grenade may be a Royal Artillery collar badge. The seven flamed grenade has and still is the collar badge for the artillery, both RA and RCA. (Nine flames are the engineers collar.) And a note on piper's badges, the number of drones indicates the piper is Irish or Scots. Two drones and three drones respectively.

The Maxim mg patch is an interesting item. It doesn't seem to have been officially sanctioned. A similar patch exists for the Colt mg, which was used only for a short period of time by the CEF.

HQ7, in respect to your stretcher bearer armband, it appears to be older. I would strongly reccomend taking the armband to a conservator and asking them about the grainy material (mud?), on the cloth. Should it be removed? It will contribute to the deterioration of the artefact. (I would not wash the armband, but perhaps a gentle brushing to remove the crud? I know that this is very controversial, as some suggest that the item should be left as found, on the other hand the material will cause some damage, and likely accelerate deterioration.)

Here are a few more examples from my collection.

In the top image the star/rifle represents a prize badge for best shot, and may be post war. The second, spur and whip is a prize badge for skill at driving, the hammer and tongs for artificers, and the MG is for machine gunners. (May not be WWI, but between the war issue.)

The scout badge has an interesting tag attached which reads, "Taken from a German's breast pocket in Sanctuary Woods June 13, 1916. R.McLeod 193 2 Div Sig Co. The back of the card indicates that it is a FELDPOSTKARTE. The MG patch is on an CEF tunic with insignia to the 227th Bn CEF.

[Tom Morgan]

Just a trivial observation - the tongs have curious design fault! It seems that wherever you put the pivot, they wouldn't work and would neither open nor close.

Tom

[N.S.Regt.]

Bill

Thanks for that I try to stay away for badges that I can not confirm a WW1 connection. As you said many badges were used post war and up to WW2. I think the shear number of different badges is what interest me. Anyway I took a scan of a lewis gunner badge that is on one of my 85th battalion tunics. The funny thing about this tunic is in his service record there is on mention of Lewis gun training unless he received it in Canada before he sailed.

Best regards

N.S.Regt.

[N.S.Regt.]

forgot the picture

[Staffsyeoman]

The rifle with star above is actually a 2nd Class Shot in the Army Cadet Force. Now, my brain has failed me atthis hour, but it is either Full Bore or .22/Target Rifle [the distinction between them is that one has a scarlet backing, the other khaki - as here. It is quite an old one... Shooting prize badges were crossed rifles upright (see the cover of Langleybastion's never equalled work on British Trade and Proficiency Badges! (My copy buried in a storage box, hence lack of resolution of this failing memory issue..)

[Bill Alexander]

Hello Phil, Using the same reference that you quote, the star/long rifle patch was also a prize badge for the best shot in volunteers. It also indicates as you said, that the badge has been used by the army cadets since 1944. The manufacture of the badge illustrated is older rather than newer. As indicated proficiency badges are an area of confusion.

[Muerrisch]

Anyone with a serious interest needs Edwards and Langley 'British Army Proficiency Badges' published 1984, ISBN0 9509427 0 7.

It is out of print, changes hands at a big premium, and I have only a small number left to provide for my old [older] age. They are not for sale, but the book does appear on lists from time to time.

By the way, a fair nuber of badges shown on this thread are not British Army.

[Muerrisch]

PS I forgot to say Stretcher Bearers' brassards are 'SB', not the red cross, which was for RAMC only. Each authentic one has a Geneva Convention certification on the back, I believe.

[N.S.Regt.]

LangleyBaston1418

You are correct in pointing out that a number of the badges are pictured are not British. All the examples I have would have been worn by a member of the C.E.F. during the war or just after. I checked on the reference it must be a scarse one I did a couple of searches could not find a copy for sale. I will keep my eyes open for it .

Best regards

N.S.Regt.

[Koots]

Thanks Bill for your suggestion regarding the armbands conservation. There's also a flag that may have been on a vehicle or at an Aid Station. I'll ask about it at the same time. It shows its been in the weather as the red cross emblem has changed to more of an orange colour, as compared to the armband. The flag measures 14ins. x 18ins. and is made of identical materials as that of the armband. I'm speculating they were made by the same contractor.

Best regards

HQ7

[Bill Alexander]

Hello. David, it is your book that we were using as reference.

Now you have raised other questions. Which patches are not British? And are these not British because of construction, or because of what is on the proficiencey badge? As NS Regt indicates these badges have mostly been accumulated from CEF sources, though some of the badges in my posts I assume are British. However, in the field, wouldn't the CEF have drawn trade badges from the same manufacturers as the BEF? It doesn't make sense to order all the way back to Canada for something that was readily available in the UK. (Of course not to say that the army always did things that made sense. )

Could you indicate which ones are not consistent with the era as well? Tracking down proficiency badges in the Canadian (and I would assume other imperial armies) is an almost impossible task. The Canadian army was very closely integrated with the imperial army until after WW2. As such the war establishments, rank structure, etc were very similar. The CEF followed the policies of the BEF to a point, but differences crept in. Trying to identify the differences and understand the reasons for them is interesting research.

HQ7, in reference to your Red Cross "flag", these were sometimes worn as a bib over the tunic. It was to clearly indicate the individual was a stretcher bearer. I can't remember the sources, but there are photos of this type of insignia being worn in this manner.

[KIRKY]

Can anyone tell me where you can buy cloth insignia, not bothered if repro?

Tony

[Muerrisch]

Sorry I am a bit short of time. The two badges I am uneasy about are the Maxim in wreath, and the pipes. In general, the very small wreaths on badges indicate non-UK origins unless associated with Royal Marines/ Navy. Denis Edwards and I found no good evidence before 1947 for a pipe badge except for pipe major. As ever, if I can be proven wrong, I will be delighted, and take the new info on board. Must rush.

[Bill Alexander]

Thanks David. Suspicion has been raised over here about the Maxim and the Colt badges. As always, one must be armed with knowledge to approach collecting.

[priv]

Re the question as to the difference between Full Bore and Small Bore for the CCF, the Green Backing was (in my day) for Small Bore and the Red for Full Bore. The Crown Indicated 1st Class, the Star was second class if I recall, and then there was just a rifle for anyone who could point and shoot the thing - though being such a good shot (!????) i only ever got the one with the Crown !!!

I was shooting at Bisley yesterday in the Schools Veterans match at the end of the Ashburton meeting and noticed that the RAF Cadets had Blue Badges for the shooting qualification, so obviously the distinction of Red and Green was only applicable to the Army. Do not have a clue what the Navy would wear.

James

[Muerrisch]

Sailors shooting? It is said that the sight of sailors with rifles is the only thing to terrify Royal Marines. Similarly, the most worrying sight for a soldier is an officer with a map.