RFC Uniforms - help to date a photograph?

[keithaber]

Dear all,

Do the uniforms present in the photograph give any clues of the date or location? One of the men (with the cat) is my grandfather, Frank Matthews later to show up on the RAF Muster Roll and via his medals as 17494, Frank Matthews, AM1, date of entry January 1916. He appears in what may be an earlier photograph in Ireland (Curragh Camp) again in RFC uniform. I am trying to determine if this photograph is later (and perhaps in France).

Any help much appreciated.

Regards

Keith

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Difficult to date as the RFC Maternity Smock Tunic was IIRC worn throughout WW1 by ORs.

RFC Link

HB

and sadly the "Loo" Door could be French or Irish!! We need a Brickwork expert!!!

[squirrel]

The brickwork looks like English bond - row of stretchers (side of bricks) row of headers (ends of bricks) and used just about anywhere in Europe! As an aside, I have never seen Flemish bond used in Belgium.

[headgardener]

Harry is right, of course.

2 thoughts;

1. regarding the likely date, no-one appears to be wearing any overseas service chevrons (introduced 1918) or any campaign medal ribbons (introduced 1917-ish), so I'd place the image at about 1915-1917. Yes, very vague, but that's about the best that we can do. It's always possible, of course, that these men were all home service and that no-one was entitled to campaign ribbons or o/s chevrons. But you say that your chap did serve in France, so I'll stick with my 'best bet' about the likely date.

2. regarding whether or not it's taken in France, try posting a scan of the back of the card. We may get some clues from that. The reverse of French or Belgian cards tend to almost blank with no writing on or the words 'carte postale' in large letters along the top. British cards are more likely to say 'post card', or have the word 'post card' spelled out in a variety of different languages.

[Deerhunter]

I'd put it as France. The only reason is that there is a JNCO there, plus no obvious organised benches, seating arrangements, etc. What I mean by that is that if the blokes are in training, then there would not necessarily be a spread of ranks (i.e. they would all be at ease as A/Cs)also if it were a training establishment there would be some kind of structure, i.e. a seated area, fit-for-purpose, at the rear of their training huts, cookhouse, etc. for off-duty use.

[keithaber]

Dear all,

Thanks for the replies, showing the usual high level of expertise and helpfulness of this group. I will get hold of the originals to check the back. Currently working from a digital copy with the original back in the family home.

A supplementary on the JNCO, what rank does the single stripe signify, lance corporal as in army or a specialized version associated with RFC?

Best regards

Keith

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The only other clue that it may possibly be "On Active O/S Service" is their boots are Mucky!!!

[keithaber]

Hi all,

Still no luck on the original print (disappeared into relatives "archives" for now at least).

From his Air 79 though, I can confirm he was in France (and perhaps Belgium and Germany) with 22 Squadron from 5-6-16 to 3-7-19 and then posted to Ireland on a depot station untill 1920 (which reverses my chronology guessed from the photographs. Now all I need to do is work out which of the dozen or so 22 squadron airfields he is on to fix the dates...

Closer inspection of the photograph shows he has the single propeller insignia on his sleeve and what looks like two small chevrons near the cuff. Is the former the insignia for AM1 and the latter years of service (the corporal has three of the small chevrons)? This may also help to narrow down the year of the photo based on length of service.

I have a couple of other queries about interpreting the Air 79 record, best to post as a separate thread?

Cheers

K

[Grovetown]

The presence of Overseas Chevrons on the cuff means that the photgraph cannot be earlier than January 1918 when they were instituted; and - even then - it probably took a month or so for them to start finding their way onto uniforms.

Cheers,

GT.

[Blackblue]

And if he is wearing 2 x OS Service chevrons then I guess we can date it post 5 June 1918?

Rgds

Tim D

[headgardener]

And if he is wearing 2 x OS Service chevrons then I guess we can date it post 5 June 1918?

I'm not sure about the relevance of this date in respect of o/s chevrons, but if you're suggesting that it relates in some way to the 2nd chevron being representative of o/s service during 1918 then the answer has to No; the 2 chevrons could represent 1916 and 1917, for example.

[keithaber]

I'm not sure about the relevance of this date in respect of o/s chevrons, but if you're suggesting that it relates in some way to the 2nd chevron being representative of o/s service during 1918 then the answer has to No; the 2 chevrons could represent 1916 and 1917, for example.

Hi,

The significance of the date was that 5-6-16 was the date from which my grandfather served in France. If the awarding of chevrons was based on completed years from start of service overseas the two chevrons could mean post 5-6-18? Of course if the award is on a different basis this wouldn't hold.

Cheers

K

[headgardener]

The significance of the date was that 5-6-16 was the date from which my grandfather served in France. If the awarding of chevrons was based on completed years from start of service overseas the two chevrons could mean post 5-6-18? Of course if the award is on a different basis this wouldn't hold.

No, it didn't work like that. On that basis only very few men would have any more than one or two chevrons.

My understanding is that the chevron was awarded for any part of any given year (rather than a calendar year), so he could have had 2 separate periods of overseas service which could have each led to the award of a chevron.

[keithaber]

No, it didn't work like that. On that basis only very few men would have any more than one or two chevrons.

My understanding is that the chevron was awarded for any part of any given year (rather than a calendar year), so he could have had 2 separate periods of overseas service which could have each led to the award of a chevron.

Hi there,

Thanks for the info, but this makes me doubt my interpretation of the photograph. His service appears on Air79 to be 5-6-16 to the end of the war so a maximum of three chevrons ('16, '17, '18). Combined with the information from Grovetown that the chevrons were introduced in Jan 1918 (and probably later in active service units) by this point he "should" have three chevrons (right?). I need to get a better version of the image to try and see more detail.

Any feeling for how fast the RFC shoulder titles were eliminated as this would give an upper end for the date as they all still have RFC versions?

Thanks for all posters info, much appreciated.

Keith

[headgardener]

Thanks for the info, but this makes me doubt my interpretation of the photograph. His service appears on Air79 to be 5-6-16 to the end of the war so a maximum of three chevrons ('16, '17, '18). Combined with the information from Grovetown that the chevrons were introduced in Jan 1918 (and probably later in active service units) by this point he "should" have three chevrons (right?).

No; the chevrons denote service overseas (1 for each year).

Service overseas for 3 years - 3 chevrons. Service in the UK for 3 years - no chevrons. That's what I meant when I said that his 2 years could have been sometime in 1916 and 1917 (though an educated guess would be that the chevrons represent 1917 and 1918).

I have no idea about the likely upper end for phasing out RFC shoulder titles. Probably quite variable, especially for men serving in France (I'd imagine that there were many more important things to send to France in April 1918 than new cloth shoulder titles).

[Blackblue]

The writing says they each represented a full years service overseas from the date of deployment. A red one awarded for the first year if they departed before 31 December 1914. How this was interpreted appears to have varied it seems....

If following the rules Keith's Grandfather first deployed on 5 June 1916...I think the odds are this photo was probably taken after he was awarded his second chevron....after 5 June 1918.

Rgds

Tim D

[Grovetown]

The writing says they each represented a full years service overseas from the date of deployment. A red one awarded for the first year if they departed before 31 December 1914.

Yes: but it's not a calendar year, it's 12 months aggregated, with provision for leave within that. A man may have served overseas in 1915, 16, 17 and 18 - but not receive any OS chevrons if there wasn't a cumulative 12 months within that. The Red one is the herring, because it was an immediate award irrespective of time served.

In the particular though, your point is well made.

Cheers,

GT.

[Blackblue]

Cheers GT.

[Andrew Upton]

Yes: but it's not a calendar year, it's 12 months aggregated, with provision for leave within that. A man may have served overseas in 1915, 16, 17 and 18 - but not receive any OS chevrons if there wasn't a cumulative 12 months within that. The Red one is the herring, because it was an immediate award irrespective of time served.

That's not quite correct GT - the first award of a blue chevron also did not necessarily represent a full year (or eleven months with one months leave). One chevron whether red or blue technically covered everything from one day up to 12 months, two over a year and up to two, etc etc:

"AO 4 1918 is paraphrased below:

The date of award of the first Chevron was that on which the individual left the UK, or in the case of those serving abroad at the outbreak of war, 5 August 1914. For Overseas troops, the first chevron was awarded on the date of leaving their own country or were employed on local operations. Further Chevrons were awarded for each succesive aggregate period of 12 months. One month of leave was permitted in calculation. If first point of service was before 31 Dec 1914 a red chevron was awarded after 1 Jan 1915 all were blue."

[headgardener]

Thank you Tim, GT and Andrew for clearing that up for me. I had been told years ago that they related to service within a specific calendar year, but clearly that isn't correct.