47th Div patch

[Tim P]

As a ww2 enthusiast I am aware of badging practices on battledress but as a complete ww1 novice I am a little in the dark about insignia protocals which seem to range from nothing to a bewildering array of shapes and strips and patches. My primary question is, was the insignia of the 47th Division worn as an arm patch and if so,would two red BoS strips be worn beneath it to denote the second brigade?

[squirrel]

The Divisonal patch was not worn on the jacket by 47th (London) Division. See the following:

47th (2nd London) Division – formation signs and insignia

When the Division went to France in 1915, the Divisional sign was used as a convenient recognition symbol for MT vehicles. Apparently the star was chosen by the OC 47th Divisional Supply Column, as representing a simplified version of the Army Service Corps badge. The edging of the square was colour coded as follows: Blue for Divisional Troops, Yellow for 140th Brigade group, Green for 141st Infantry Brigade group, and Red for the 142nd Brigade group.

In November 1915 Divisional Trains were ordered to mark their vehicles with the same sign as the 47th Divisional Supply Column. The sign was modified so it could be painted on the side of GS wagons, the colour of the border still indicating the Brigade Company of the Train to which the vehicle belonged.

During the winter of 1916 the marks or signs peculiar to Divisional Trains were painted by order of GHQ on all vehicles of the Division. Variations for Brigades were not allowed so the blue border previously used by only the Divisional Troops was extended to the whole Division.

The Infantry signs, in coloured felt, were worn by all ranks on both arms, about 4" from the shoulder strap seam as follows:

140 Brigade Yellow Heart, 6th London. Yellow Diamond, 7th London. Yellow Club, 8th London. Yellow Spade, 15th London.

141 Brigade Green Heart, 17th London. Green Diamond, 18th London. Green Club, 19th London. Green Spade, 20th London.

142 Brigade Red Heart, 21st London. Red Diamond, 22nd London. Red Club, 23rd London. Red Spade, 24th London.

In addition Companies wore a coloured bar about 1 1/2" long and 1/4" deep beneath the card suit shapes. These were blue, yellow, green, and red for A, B, C and D Companies respectively.

From members Tocemma and John Gregory on the Great war Forum 8/4/2010.

[Staffsyeoman]

The two red bars indicator for the middle brigade of the division (used regardless of your arm of service ; e.g. two red bars and an RASC strip was possible) was a Second World War device only. Most (not all) WW1 divisional insignia differed greatlky from WW2 counterparts, and often wasn't worn on uniform, mainly being on vehicles and signs.

[john gregory]

47th Div flash being worn

[squirrel]

Thank you for the photograph John - in a previous thread regarding the badge it was stated that the 47th Division did not wear the badge. This chap looks like ASC so perhaps the transport elements of the Division wore it but the Infantry brigades did not?

[Tim P]

thanks for the answers, as ever more speculation arises however. I am quite satisfied that the arm insignia was not worn by infanteers.

[Tim P]

having 're read this it seems that a green spade is correct for the 20th London?

[squirrel]

Correct.

[Tim P]

how would you best describe the shade of green? I imagine it to be snooker table green. rough dimensions would be appreciated too if you have them. again I picture a 2 or 2.5inch tall badge

[squirrel]

I should think that battalion patch colours varied somewhat depending on what was available, supplier etc.but snooker table green would not be far off the mark IMHO.

Sizes varied as welll although about 2 inches plus or minus would be correct.

[tn.drummond]

47th Div flash being worn

Many thanks for posting this - never seen it in 'situ', so to speak, although I do agree with Squirrel's ASC comments.

Tim