Shoulder rank Officers tunics

[o j kirby]

Hello,

Can anyone offer a guide as to how to tell if a shoulder rank tunic is from WW1? Are there any tell-tale signs other than names and dates?

Can anyone put any photos on the forum that might help me out?

Many thanks,

Owain.

[o j kirby]

Hello,

I see that no-one has followed up on this posting. Is there anybody out there?

Owain.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Owain

General officers, officers on the Staff, the Foot Guards, and possibly also the Household Cavalry, wore rank badges on the shoulders throughout the war.

Other officers shifted them unofficially from the cuffs to the shoulders as a safety measure, but I don't think this was generally approved until some time in 1917. Some thought it smacked of "funk" but, given the efficiency of German snipers, it was one of several quite sensible measures adopted to make officers look more like other ranks (trousers and puttees instead of breeches and boots, carrying a rifle, etc).

Ron

[FROGSMILE]

Hello,

I see that no-one has followed up on this posting. Is there anybody out there?

Owain.

Owain it would be very difficult to tell the difference without makers labels dated on the tunic and an insignia manufacturers mark that you could check (for continued existence) on the rank badges (pips or stars) themselves.

[dutchbarge]

Here's a vetted one from WW1. As in this case the only way you can be reasonably certain of the date is to have an ID'd tailor's label and research the officer. Other than that it is almost impossible to tell as WW1 thru WW2 officer's lancer cuff, shoulder rank, service dress doesn't offer many clues as to date. Tunic furnishings (ie. GRV vs GRVI buttons, campaign ribbons, size/finish of pips and crowns, Regimental badges, etc.) would, if original to the tunic,would be a great help. Unfortunately all of a tunic's furnishing can be easily changed to suit any period desired. Add in that officers had quite a bit of lattitude in choosing fabric, cut and linings, it is very hard to pin down dates. A tailor's label can sometimes offer clues. Postal codes and shop address changed and can be researched by date (the introduction of alpha-numeric postal codes in 1917 can be a hint at dating a tailor's label) but tailors no doubt used up old stocks of labels before using those with newer addresses. A researchable name, inked on the tailor's label, in period correct script, is, IMHO, essential. Knowing when the officer served, when he was de-mobbed, his organization, awards, campaign medals, overseas chevrons, wound stripes, ect. can really paint a compelling picture of the tunic at hand. Cheers, Bill

[dutchbarge]

Tailor's label to above. The label can be a great source of information. Knowing that Troyte-Bullock won his DSO in 1916, and seeing the 'DSO' following his name on this label obviously dates this tunic post 1916, which coincides with the proliferation of shoulder rank. I believe that while the wearing of 'wind up' tunics was tolerated in the BEF more or less depending up the Regiment, it wasn't until 1922 that shoulder rank (other than for general officers and Guards units) was allowed for wear at home. Cheers, Bill

[wainfleet]

Waistband and/or ticket pocket, khaki whipcord material, evidence of conversion from cuff rank - all are good indicators of a tunic being wartime, but none are either essential or conclusive. Is there a particular tunic you are wondering about? Posting a photo, if possible, is usually the best way to get informed advice.

Rgds,

W.

[dutchbarge]

Good points which slipped my mind. Also, perhaps a 'gas' collar button and tab, that would enable the wearor to button the open label collar to close around an HP mask (also somewhat helpful in keeping mustard gas off ones neck when wearing the SBR). Cheers, Bill

[Khaki]

Waistband and/or ticket pocket, khaki whipcord material, evidence of conversion from cuff rank - all are good indicators of a tunic being wartime, but none are either essential or conclusive. Is there a particular tunic you are wondering about? Posting a photo, if possible, is usually the best way to get informed advice.

Rgds,

W.

I do not know what is meant by a 'waistband', can someone please elaborate, preferably with a photo of a tunic without sam browne etc.

thanks

khaki

[Stoppage Drill]

Well established tailors - may be some business records somewhere:

LG 27 July 1875:-

NOTICE is hereby given, that the Partnership heretofore

existing between us the undersigned, Samuel

Baverstock and Harry Baverstock, in the trades or businesses

of Tailors and Military Cap Makers, at No. 2, Bankstreet,

Aldershot, in the county of Southampton, under the

style or firm of Baverstock Brothers, has this day been

mutually dissolved. All debts due and owing to or from

the said partnership will be received and paid by the said

Harry Baverstock, who will in future carry on the said business

on his own account.—Dated this 20th day of July,

1875. Samuel Baverstock.

Harry Baverstock.

then,

LG 20 Feb 1925

NOTICE is hereby given, that the Partnershipheretofore

subsisting between us, the undersigned,

Harry Baverstock, of Aldershot, and Percy

Meredith Baverstpck, of the same place, carrying

on business as Tailors and Outfitters, at Nos. 3-5,

Grosvenor-road, Aldershot, in the county of

Southampton, under the style or firm of H.

BAVERSTOCK AND SON, was dissolved as and

from the 2nd day of February, 1925, by mutual'

consent. All debts due and owing to or by the said

late firm will be received or paid by the said Percy

Meredith Baverstock; and such business will hecarried

on in the future by the said Percy Meredith-

Baverstock, under the same style—Dated the 17th

day of February, 1925.

HARRY BAVERSTOCK.

(073) P. M. BAVERSTOCK.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I do not know what is meant by a 'waistband', can someone please elaborate, preferably with a photo of a tunic without sam browne etc.

thanks

khaki

khaki,

Here is a Lt.Col's WW1 jacket from my Collection belonging to Lt. Col. H. de Salis, and you can clearly see the ' waistband ', which is a 2 inch or so strip of material running around the jacket's waist. In my picture it is mid left, immediately above the patch pocket.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

khaki,

Sometimes, the waistband will incorporate a small pocket or ' ticket pocket '.

Regards,

LF

[Khaki]

Thank you LF,

Very helpful, the tunic that I have shows a sort of 'waisted' seam which differs from your image insomuch that it would appear to the untrained eye that the tailor joined two pieces of material (the upper and the lower skirt) together, although I think this unlikely. It is probably a tailor's technique in creating a waist. As has been said elsewhere it is almost impossible to tell without a tailors label or some personal provenance as to the owner.

My tunic has shoulder rank and is probably later war if at all, I don't know how many uniforms were ordered from a tailor (wartime) possibly a more affluent officer may have ordered as many as six, of which it could be possible that a number may have remained unworn during the war and with the officer continued in postwar service.

Thanks again for the prompt and useful response

khaki

[FROGSMILE]

SD jackets without the waistband were provided by some tailors in WW1 as a simplified (and cheaper) option. This type continued to be offered between the two world wars (but not accepted by all regiments). In WW2 it was finally authorised/stipulated as an austerity pattern, that used less cloth, within wartime 'dress regulations'. thus regularising something that had been going on for several decades.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Very helpful, the tunic that I have shows a sort of 'waisted' seam which differs from your image insomuch that it would appear to the untrained eye that the tailor joined two pieces of material (the upper and the lower skirt) together, although I think this unlikely. It is probably a tailor's technique in creating a waist. As has been said elsewhere it is almost impossible to tell without a tailors label or some personal provenance as to the owner.

khaki

khaki,

Here is another of my tunics, a WW1 era KGV Grenadier Guards Captain's parade tunic, and you will see a seam around the waist which appears to join the upper and lower portions of the tunic, is this the seam you were describing ?

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

SD jackets without the waistband were provided by some tailors in WW1 as a simplified (and cheaper) option.

Frogsmile,

My Gloucestershire Regiment ' Glorious Glosters ' Lieutenant's WW1 jacket without the waistband, as you have said.

Regards,

LF

[Khaki]

Thanks frogsmile and LF,

Yes LF, the Grenadiers tunic, post #15, is exactly what I meant, the officer that my tunic belonged to served into the early 20's and then retired The lapels show no evidence of badges. His rank was major (temp) wartime and permanent post war.The shoulder boards show evidence of having had other rank badges, ie., Lieutenant/Captain.As he was initially commissioned as a 2nd Lieut (1900) Rifle Brigade)and there is no evidence of cuff rank, I think (wishfull) that the uniform is late WW1 made.

regards

khaki

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile,

My Gloucestershire Regiment ' Glorious Glosters ' Lieutenant's WW1 jacket without the waistband, as you have said.

Regards,

LF

Yes, that is the type that I was referring to. Interestingly the two types were still available to regiments until very recently, not to mention the variations of the RA and various cavalry regiments. Sadly that is now all going, with a standard type being adopted (foisted upon) all units except for the Guards Division, who alone will continue to have truly bespoke uniforms, with the remainder provided with 'off the rack'. Truly it is the end of not just an era, but an entire tailoring culture and the most significant change since 1914.