Old Contemtibles of 1914

[PFF]

Which units of the British Army were known as the Old Contemptibles of 1914?

Do they still call themselves by this nickname?

[Chris_Baker]

As far as I know, no unit ever called itself by this name. I believe I am right in saying that Old Contemptibles Association members had to be recipients of the 1914 Star regardless of unit: that is, they had been in France or Flanders at some point prior to 23 November 1914.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Agree with Chris, the name 'Old Contemptible' was adopted by the individuals, not units, who had served in France prior to 23 November 1914. The last individual entitled to claim to be an 'Old Contemptible' was Alfred Anderson of the Black Watch, who died in 2005 aged 109.

George

[TParker96]

Hi,

Found this on the long, long trail website:

Completing the "Old Contemptibles"

The 4th Division, which was already mobilised in England in accordance with pre-war planning, moved to France just in time to take part in the defensive stand made at Le Cateau on 26 August 1914. The 6th Division, similarly ready, also moved out and joined the BEF. They missed the great retreat but took part in the advance to the Aisne. Meanwhile, many battalions of the regular army were ordered to move from various stations around the Empire. Those among the earliest to arrive in England had sailed from Malta, South Africa, and Gibraltar. They were formed up into the 7th Division, arguably amongst the strongest formations assembled by the British, consisting of trained soldiers, needing fewer reservists to be made up to full strength. The 7th Division was initially ordered to the defence of Antwerp and landed at Zeebrugge on 6 October 1914 - but it was soon moved to the vicinity of Ypres where it played a central role in the first defensive battle there. All of the Divisions named thus far were very heavily engaged in these early days of the war; indeed by the close of the First Battle of Ypres, they were all but destroyed. They took great pride in their achievements, and were always known as The Old Contemptibles.

Hope this helps

Tom

[Philip Wilson]

On the 19^th August 1914 the Kaiser sent the following message to the Commander of the First German Army, General Alexander von Kluck:

It is my Royal and Imperial Command that you should concentrate your energies for the immediate present upon one single purpose, which is to address all your skill and all the valour of my soldiers to exterminate the treacherous English and walk over General French's contemptible little army.

Kate Caffrey in her book 'Farewell, Leicester Square – The Old Contemptibles 12 August to 20 November 1914' published in 1980, reminds the reader the word contemptible should have been translated as 'insignificant.'

The claim to the title of 'Old Contemptible' rests on the first hundred days from 12 August to the 19 November 1914, when what was left of the BEF realised the first Battle of Ypres was over. The survivors of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) proudly called themselves the 'Old Contemptibles.'

Those who served in France and Belgium under fire during the period 5 August to 22 November 1914 received a clasp to the 1914 Star. The 1914 Star, known as the Mons Star was awarded to some 400,000 recipients who formed the original BEF in 1914 - the contemptible little army which took part in the retreat from Mons.

[steven belfast]

Can you still claim the clasp?

[horatio2]

The 1914 Star, known as the Mons Star was awarded to some 400,000 recipients who formed the original BEF in 1914 - the contemptible little army which took part in the retreat from Mons.

Not forgetting 12,000 members of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines who had nothing to do with 'Mons' but a lot to do with the defence of Antwerp.

[ianw]

These soldiers were hugely proud of this title inadvertently bestowed on them by the enemy. My Grandfather (Sergt Edward Levingston 19th Hussars) has the OCA badge on his grave - well I hope it is still there! I have his medal ribbon bar and it

carries the small silver rose which was officially issued with the bar. This would have allowed OC's to instantly recognise each other when "on parade" either wearing full medals or just the ribbon bar.

A very special group of men.

[bill24chev]

These men of August to November 1914 were Kiplings "Tommy". Only severe poverty or the need to get away would have persuaded a man to take the shilling in the Victorian/Edwardian era. To polite society these men were still "the scum of the earth" to quote the Duke of Boot and ironicaly held in contempt by society..

Their Valour and determinatian in the fighting of the first hundred days when they suffered almost complete destruction probably was a major factor in the ultimate allied victory. If they had been defeated and/or forced into a Dunkirk prequell this could have ended the war in Germany,s favour.

We have a lot to thank the Old Contemptables for!

[Robert Dunlop]

the contemptible little army...

In a previous thread, Siege Gunner noted that this may have been a mis-translation of the original German. It should have been translated 'contemptibly little army...', i.e. contempt was being heaped on the size of the army, not the army itself. This would fit with other descriptions, where the experience and doggedness of the BEF was respected from the outset of the war. Be that as it may, the final English version served to galvanise further the resolve of the BEF, not just the Old Contemptibles .

Robert

[dycer]

From the Foreword to Lyn MacDonald's Book "1914".

"For the soldiers of 1914 it was different.Kitchener's Army was proud of its amateurism,but the regular soldiers of the old British Army took pride in their bold professional skills-and they were professional to the marrow.The nickname "Old Contemptibles' which they so good-humouredly adopted does not appear in these pages.(In any event,the Kaiser was referring to the size of the British Expeditionary Force,and not its quality.) If Kitchener's Army of volunteers was prepared to fight and possibly die because it was their duty,the officers and men of 1914 were prepared to fight and die because it was their job."

I should like to add that some TF Battalions should be included in the 1914 "Contemptible" roll call.

George

[ulsterlad2]

Can you still claim the clasp?

Hi Steven. I've read that you can no longer claim WW1 medals so I imagine that the Clasp or the Clasp & Rose would be the same

[Muerrisch]

intersting divergence of end dates all mid November 1914 , at least three offered above. Surely 1914 star defines an OC?

[dycer]

From the letter that accompanied a Casualty's Medal(Clasp not claimed by Family although entitled).

"I am directed to transmit to you the accompanying "1914 Star" which would have been conferred upon -------- had he lived.It is now sent to you in memory of his services with the British Expeditionary Forces employed in France and Belgium between the outbreak of war and midnight,22nd/23rd November,1914."

George

[Chris_Baker]

... which is what I said in Post #2.

[Chris_Baker]

To polite society these men were still "the scum of the earth" to quote the Duke of Boot and ironicaly held in contempt by society..

This is often said, but is there any evidence that it was so by 1914?

[dycer]

Clearly not.

My Uncle by Marriage was a 1914 Veteran,i.e. was recalled from pre-War Service, as a Royal Scots Grey,to serve between August and November 1914,as a member of the Military Mounted Police and claimed his Clasp and Roses.

The only photo of my Uncle,by Marriage,I possess,is of him is wearing a Postman's Uniform,post WW1,without his decorations.

He also ran a sweet shop, post WW1, with my Aunt.

I just remember him as my Uncle Archie.

George

[bill24chev]

This is often said, but is there any evidence that it was so by 1914?

I would agree that by the summer of 1914 the regular soldier was probably better thought of than in the previous decades. I beleive this was due to enhanced patriotism as war loomed, to mis quote Kipling "its brave band of eros when the guns begin to shoot".

My comment on attitudes to the Tommy pre-war are based on my recolections from a book on the social history of the British Army, i cant find my copy at the moment but will try to dig it out at give a more academically acceptable reference.

Bill

ps (added 1445 240782)

Many of the SNco's and reservists would probably have served in the years when tommy was derided and I suspect they wouould have remembered.

[Jack Sheldon]

Chris

I think that there is some evidence that, despite the overwhelming reponse to the call for volunteers (aided, no doubt, by the high unemployment in the summer of 1914) there were places where the appeal fell on stony ground.

David Lloyd George War Memoirs New Edition Vol I p 215

'By the end of the year [1914] over a million young men had volunteered ... In some quarters the prejudice against leaving home to join the Army still lingered. Recruiting agencies had still in some areas a difficulty in overcoming the tradition about the youth who for some unsatisfactory reason 'ran away to be a soldier'. And it took some time and much appeal to break it down. I had taken my place in these recruiting appeals especially amongst non-conformists, who had always been inclined to hold aloof from the Army, and also amongst my Welsh fellow-countrymen of all creeds'.

As we know L-G aspired to the recrutiment of a complete Welsh corps and failed. Perhaps his efforts were aimed in that direction. Whichever it was, his remarks are interesting I feel.

Jack

[mike n]

Can you still claim the clasp?

There is still stock of the clasp available but it is general for sale and issue. I think it is the liverpool mint or similar that has these un cliamed / not issued clasps avialable around £10

Hi,

Found this on the long, long trail website:

Completing the "Old Contemptibles"

The 4th Division, which was already mobilised in England in accordance with pre-war planning, moved to France just in time to take part in the defensive stand made at Le Cateau on 26 August 1914. The 6th Division, similarly ready, also moved out and joined the BEF. They missed the great retreat but took part in the advance to the Aisne. Meanwhile, many battalions of the regular army were ordered to move from various stations around the Empire. Those among the earliest to arrive in England had sailed from Malta, South Africa, and Gibraltar. They were formed up into the 7th Division, arguably amongst the strongest formations assembled by the British, consisting of trained soldiers, needing fewer reservists to be made up to full strength. The 7th Division was initially ordered to the defence of Antwerp and landed at Zeebrugge on 6 October 1914 - but it was soon moved to the vicinity of Ypres where it played a central role in the first defensive battle there. All of the Divisions named thus far were very heavily engaged in these early days of the war; indeed by the close of the First Battle of Ypres, they were all but destroyed. They took great pride in their achievements, and were always known as The Old Contemptibles.

Hope this helps

Tom

[mike n]

5th Div went from Ireland to fight at the beginning as well

[Chris_Baker]

That is why the paragraph highlighted is titled "Completing ...". 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th Divisions and the Cavalry Division were already in France and are covered in an earlier paragraph.

[healdav]

In a previous thread, Siege Gunner noted that this may have been a mis-translation of the original German. It should have been translated 'contemptibly little army...', i.e. contempt was being heaped on the size of the army, not the army itself. This would fit with other descriptions, where the experience and doggedness of the BEF was respected from the outset of the war. Be that as it may, the final English version served to galvanise further the resolve of the BEF, not just the Old Contemptibles .

Robert

In fact, I said that it should probably have been translated Contemptibly SMALL army.

English is the only language I speak that differentiates between small and little.

[Muerrisch]

In fact, I said that it should probably have been translated Contemptibly SMALL army.

English is the only language I speak that differentiates between small and little.

Interesting: not sure this ancient native speaker can differentiate between small and little ....... I am left wondering!

[Rustygr]

Hello , new user here. Just asking how I find the name of the Old Contemptible badge I have passed down to me ? The number on the back is 3856 Aug 5 to Nov 22 …. ASSN . Any help me please ?