Infantry Staff Sergeants

[Muerrisch]

Staff Sergeants of Line Infantry 1910.At last an official definition!

Regs Eqpt Army, Infantry, 1910.Please note that whereas the infantry had no RANK of staff-sergeant, it had a category for purposes of accoutrements and quality of some clothing.

Swords, staff-sgts were provided for:

Sergeant-majors, bandmasters, QM sergeants, Orderly Room [OR] sergeants, sgt drummers, buglers, cooks, C/Sgt Instr Musk, band sgt*, sgt master tailor*, sgt master shoemaker* all armed and accoutred as staff sgts.

* these three included in establishment of sgts [ie not listed under above appointments in Establishments]

Slightly surprised by inclusion of Cook and exclusion of Pioneer in swords list. Sgt Pipers not armed with staff sword of course.

Compared the above with these Establishments, my nearest relevant matches by date:

1906 Field Service India:Established appointments listed are the same as with swords above but additionally armourer staff-sgt Corps of Armourers, sgt pioneer, OR Clerk [in addition to OR sgt], and of course C-Sgts. And excluding band sgt.

1905 Home WEAs India above but Cook, transport, signalling, shoemaker are all in list of named appointments.

1907 dittoAs above but no OR sgt.

1914 dittoAs above.

Finally, comparison with named office-holders in battalion SNCO group photos.

1902 Cheshires Quetta those wearing staff caps [cannot see all the swords] in summer KD are

Sgt Major, Bandmaster, sgt drummer, band sgt, qmsgt, armourer sgt.

Those posts named without staff cap are

Pioneer sgt, OR sgt, is all.

c. 1904 2nd RWF India: posts not named but as far as I can tell:

Sgt Maj, Bandmaster, QMS, QMS [as ORQMS], and six irritating others where appointment badges not visible.

Any contributions very welcome

And I might add the Cheshires allowed their Lance-Sgts to wear the sash!

[Muerrisch]

bumping this one up because I do believe it is of considerable interest to many members.

[Graham Stewart]

Grumpy - I found this piece of information very interesting as I believe it can also answer some questions regarding those regulars attached to either the Volunteer or Territorials as either Sgt Instructors of Musketry or Sgt Instructors.

Over the past I've seen photo's of three gentlemen who have been identified as such, wearing uniforms of a superior quality, with officers lace and carrying swords. In three cases - two were positively identified and named and all three were wearing the distinctive 4 bar chevrons(point down), two with crossed rifles and crown above and one with just the crown above. The outstanding feature being the fact that all three were carrying swords.

As you known "staff sgt's" can be described as a generic term when applied to the infantry and wonder if those regulars attached to the "permanent staff" of the Volunteers, Territorials & perhaps the Militia were dressed and equipped as such??

What would be interesting to know is exactly what was the establishment of regular Sgt Instructors to the Volunteers, as in most cases they had eight companies, with many rural units being scattered?

If, what I'm inclined to think is true, then all regular Sgt Instructors on the "permanent staff" of these units were entitled to dress as "Staff Sgt's". What do you think?

If you require illustrations I'll post them, but they are from another Forum.

[FROGSMILE]

<br />Grumpy - I found this piece of information very interesting as I believe it can also answer some questions regarding those regulars attached to either the Volunteer or Territorials as either Sgt Instructors of Musketry or Sgt Instructors.<br /><br />Over the past I've seen photo's of three gentlemen who have been identified as such, wearing uniforms of a superior quality, with officers lace and carrying swords. In three cases - two were positively identified and named and all three were wearing the distinctive 4 bar chevrons(point down), two with crossed rifles and crown above and one with just the crown above. The outstanding feature being the fact that all three were carrying swords.<br /><br />As you known "staff sgt's" can be described as a generic term when applied to the infantry and wonder if those regulars attached to the "permanent staff" of the Volunteers, Territorials & perhaps the Militia were dressed and equipped as such??<br /><br />What would be interesting to know is exactly what was the establishment of regular Sgt Instructors to the Volunteers, as in most cases they had eight companies, with many rural units being scattered?<br /><br />If, what I'm inclined to think is true, then all regular Sgt Instructors on the "permanent staff" of these units were entitled to dress as "Staff Sgt's". What do you think?<br /><br />If you require illustrations I'll post them, but they are from another Forum.<br />

I know that your question is to Grumpy and I too will be interested to see his reply, but for what it is worth and based upon all my own research over the years, I believe you have it absolutely right.  The wearing of swords is unequivocal and the status of musketry instructors within the VF was clearly that of Staff Serjeants.  Given that these men were almost all Colour Serjeants of Musketry within their own regiments they were of Staff Serjeant grade anyway, albeit not of the first class.

[Graham Stewart]

Crikey - were you at GCHQ, when you sent that reply? Actualy apart from "Fast Reply", there seems to be no other reply facility, which means no "attachments" can be posted. Has GWF been hacked and do the Administrators know?

[FROGSMILE]

There is some kind of corruption Graham and earlier I and others could not get in at all. As it is now possible to gain access I can only assume they are on the case. I too cannot post any images and there are odd symbols sitting against each thread and section.

[Muerrisch]

There is some kind of corruption Graham and earlier I and others could not get in at all. As it is now possible to gain access I can only assume they are on the case. I too cannot post any images and there are odd symbols sitting against each thread and section.

They are kisses!

as in kiss my a**e!

Mine is nackered as well.

[Graham Stewart]

Hi Grumpy - borrowed this one from the British Badge Forum to illustrate, what both Frogsmile and I are coming across, particularly the figure on the right.

[Graham Stewart]

Sgt Instructor of Musketry John Topp, 'G'(Berwick)Coy, 1st V.B., Northumberland Fusiliers again borrowed from the British Badge Forum. I managed to trace John back to one of my regular NF databases and he formerly served with the 1st Bn, NF & the Depot. Again the distinguishing feature being the sword.

[Muerrisch]

Thank you gentlemen for these: the weight of evidence is that sergeants or above were indeed dressed as [and therefore were] staff when attached Mil/VF or SR/TF.

I suggest involve Ron Clifton for estabs. of regular instructors attached.

[Graham Stewart]

Taken from "Soldiers of the Queen" - 577 Sgt Instructor Patrick Riordan, 1st V.B., D.C.L.I.. Formerly Colour Sgt with the D.C.L.I.. Again the sword being the outstanding feature, which has both me and Frogsmile suspecting this was commonly worn by members of the "permanent staff" of the Volunteers/Territorials and possibly the Militia.

[Graham Stewart]

Cheers Grumpy - I think in conclusion with your regulations and the photographic evidence coming to hand we've possibly nailed this one. Only need to find out what the establishments of Sgt Instructors were for these units, which would be fascinating to know as there could be more swords carried among the "staff" than was possibly thought.

[FROGSMILE]

Cheers Grumpy - I think in conclusion with your regulations and the photographic evidence coming to hand we've possibly nailed this one. Only need to find out what the establishments of Sgt Instructors were for these units, which would be fascinating to know as there could be more swords carried among the "staff" than was possibly thought.

It is sad that today there would only be 7/8 men in an infantry battalion (reg and TA) entitled to 'swords staff sergeant', nowadays 'represented' by a belt with trailing slings, or in the case of the RSM (only), a Sam Browne. Viz:

1. RSM
2. RQMS
3. CSM HQ Coy
4. CSM Sp Coy (or equiv)
5. CSMs, A, B, C, D (or equiv and only if 4 rifle coys, there are often only 3)
6. APTC Instr if ranking as QMSI (extremely rare and above established rank for the post)

I wonder how that compares.

[Ron Clifton]

I suggest involve Ron Clifton for estabs. of regular instructors attached.

Glad to help!

In 1914 the establishment of the permanent cadre of an infantry battalion TF was an Adjutant, an Acting Sergeant-Major, and five Sergeant-Instructors. My notes don't say what the latter actually did, but I think it is a fair assumption that their role was more like that of a staff-sergeant than an "ordinary" sergeant, especially as there were still eight companies in a TF battalion so not enough instructors to have one per company. At least one, and possibly more, would have been instructors in musketry.

The establishment of the permanent cadre of an infantry battalion of the Special Reserve was eight officers, one warrant officer and 22 sergeants (including staff-sgts) but this included the staff of the regimental depot.

Ron

[Muerrisch]

Glad to help!

In 1914 the establishment of the permanent cadre of an infantry battalion TF was an Adjutant, an Acting Sergeant-Major, and five Sergeant-Instructors. My notes don't say what the latter actually did, but I think it is a fair assumption that their role was more like that of a staff-sergeant than an "ordinary" sergeant, especially as there were still eight companies in a TF battalion so not enough instructors to have one per company. At least one, and possibly more, would have been instructors in musketry.

The establishment of the permanent cadre of an infantry battalion of the Special Reserve was eight officers, one warrant officer and 22 sergeants (including staff-sgts) but this included the staff of the regimental depot.

Ron

Thank you very much Ron.

[Graham Stewart]

Cheers Ron, Grumpy & Frogsmile. I think we can now say with some authority that the wearing of a sword within the VF/TF, Militia/SR, by seconded regular Sgt Instructors indicates a "Staff Sgt" in the generic term, whose rank would be either Sgt Instructor of Musketry or Sgt Instructor.

[FROGSMILE]

Cheers Ron, Grumpy & Frogsmile. I think we can now say with some authority that the wearing of a sword within the VF/TF, Militia/SR, by seconded regular Sgt Instructors indicates a "Staff Sgt" in the generic term, whose rank would be either Sgt Instructor of Musketry or Sgt Instructor.

On paper (as an estb requirement) they would all be required to be musketry instructors at that time. It is partly because there were not enough instructors to have one per company that battalions started to form Training Wings where the instruction could be focussed centrally and achieve an economy of scale. It makes complete sense that they were seen as battalion staff rather than company SNCOs and that, in the manner of the times, made them 'Staff' Serjeants in the old sense.