gordontaos Posted 9 July , 2011 Share Posted 9 July , 2011 In this photo it appears as if the men have coverings over the actions of their weapons, as well as what appear to be tin cans over the muzzles. Its pretty obvious why they have done this (to keep mud and rain out), but was this field fabricated by each man, or was it an item of issue. Any further information would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombadier Posted 9 July , 2011 Share Posted 9 July , 2011 Breech covers were, I believe widely issued and used but I don't remember seeing a muzzle cover like that before. Grenade cups possibly Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aglastonbury Posted 9 July , 2011 Share Posted 9 July , 2011 Nigel, I was thinking the same. It's obvious the working parts are covered & the 'tin cans' do look a bit riffle fired grenade or mortar. However the picture does raise two questions for me. First, (point rather than question) as you can't see the working parts & sights I wouldn't guess at the Mk of the riffle to use in dating the photo. Second been a Navy Man we use balasite rounds for the line throwing projectile between ships in Replenishment At Sea (RAS) & I have never thought to ask before is the same round used by infantry for riffle launched grenades? Just never crossed my mide what other people might use the rounds for. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ander11 Posted 9 July , 2011 Share Posted 9 July , 2011 Hello Gordontaos that's a great picture, are the men from 1/7th Black watch best regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 July , 2011 Share Posted 9 July , 2011 hi Ian, I actually beg to differ, these guys are 4th div CEF 72 Bn, Seaforth's as evidenced by their distinctive formation patches on their shoulders &helmets, blue half circle over a green rectangle. I also am pretty certain that the 'cans' are rifle grenade cup chargers. Someone more expert will likely correct me but I don't think ballasite was used in these, but modified loads in regular .303 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 9 July , 2011 Share Posted 9 July , 2011 These are No.27 MkI phosphorous grenades, a rodded grenade being carried ready for use. I have seeen a copy of this picture before and the cover caps over the strikers could be seen clearly in that print. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thorne Posted 9 July , 2011 Share Posted 9 July , 2011 The Cover, breech, Mark I., was introduced by List of Changes §17368 of 24th June 1915. LoC §18301 (23rd November 1916) changed the nomenclature to the Cover, breech, No. 1, Mark I (and introduced the No. 2 for the Patt. '14 rifle), but didn't change the design. The cans at the rifle muzzles don't quite look like grenade dischargers to me. The SMLE cup discharger clamped to the nose cap, those look to be extended away from it? Possibly rod grenades? Somehow it doesn't seem right to carry them like that, but I'm no expert in that area. As for ballistite grenade firing cartridges, I believe that the first was the Cartridge, S.A., .303-inch rifle grenades, 30 grains ballistite, Mark I., introduced by LoC §19456 of 16th August 1917. This was for use with the new cup-type Discharger, grenade, rifle - No. 1, Mark I., introduced by the following LoC entry, §19457 (as with the breech cover, the No. 2 was for the Patt. '14 rifle). Earlier grenade launching cartridges were for use with rod grenades, and used cordite as the propellant. LoC §17122 introduced both the Grenade, .303-inch short rifle No. 3 Mark I. and its accompanying Cartridge, S.A., blank, .303-inch short rifle grenade (Mark I.) in February of 1915. Great photo, by the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ander11 Posted 9 July , 2011 Share Posted 9 July , 2011 hi Ian, I actually beg to differ, these guys are 4th div CEF 72 Bn, Seaforth's as evidenced by their distinctive formation patches on their shoulders &helmets, blue half circle over a green rectangle. I also am pretty certain that the 'cans' are rifle grenade cup chargers. Someone more expert will likely correct me but I don't think ballasite was used in these, but modified loads in regular .303 rounds. Hello ScottM , sorry I am not very good on uniforms. Glad you put me right , but its still a great picture !!! many thanks Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 10 July , 2011 Share Posted 10 July , 2011 Something like this. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 10 July , 2011 Share Posted 10 July , 2011 SW You have it exactly. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rif Brig. Posted 10 July , 2011 Share Posted 10 July , 2011 Hello Gordontaos, Great picture. Just out of interest, the soldier in the front has two canteens, the 08 pattern web cradle, the cavalry pattern leather harness type, Lewis drum magazine pouches and what looks like the wire cutter No.1 Mk. 2 rifle attachment. Just makes you think how much weight these guys had to carry. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black 8 Posted 10 July , 2011 Share Posted 10 July , 2011 Hello Gordontaos, Great picture. Just out of interest, the soldier in the front has two canteens, the 08 pattern web cradle, the cavalry pattern leather harness type, Lewis drum magazine pouches and what looks like the wire cutter No.1 Mk. 2 rifle attachment. Just makes you think how much weight these guys had to carry. Mark Beat me to it! the chap at the front definitely looks to have the No.1 Mk.2 wire cutters attached as well as a fitted rifle grenade. Possibly also the soldier 3rd from the right - hard to tell from this image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 July , 2011 Share Posted 10 July , 2011 The Cover, breech, Mark I., was introduced by List of Changes §17368 of 24th June 1915. LoC §18301 (23rd November 1916) changed the nomenclature to the Cover, breech, No. 1, Mark I (and introduced the No. 2 for the Patt. '14 rifle), but didn't change the design. The cans at the rifle muzzles don't quite look like grenade dischargers to me. The SMLE cup discharger clamped to the nose cap, those look to be extended away from it? Possibly rod grenades? Somehow it doesn't seem right to carry them like that, but I'm no expert in that area. As for ballistite grenade firing cartridges, I believe that the first was the Cartridge, S.A., .303-inch rifle grenades, 30 grains ballistite, Mark I., introduced by LoC §19456 of 16th August 1917. This was for use with the new cup-type Discharger, grenade, rifle - No. 1, Mark I., introduced by the following LoC entry, §19457 (as with the breech cover, the No. 2 was for the Patt. '14 rifle). Earlier grenade launching cartridges were for use with rod grenades, and used cordite as the propellant. LoC §17122 introduced both the Grenade, .303-inch short rifle No. 3 Mark I. and its accompanying Cartridge, S.A., blank, .303-inch short rifle grenade (Mark I.) in February of 1915. Great photo, by the way! Here is a picture of the relevant blanks, starting with the "Grenade Mark I" for rodded grenades, folowed by the "30 grains Ballistite Mark I", then a New Zealand WW2 version of same and finally the "Rifle Grenade 43 grains Cordite M.D. Size 4 1/4" for the cup discharger which in time became first in 1927 the "Grenade Cordite H Mark II" and then in 1948 the "Line Throwing H Mark 2" for the Royal Navy when it was long obsolete for Land service. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 11 July , 2011 Share Posted 11 July , 2011 hi Ian, I actually beg to differ, these guys are 4th div CEF 72 Bn, Seaforth's as evidenced by their distinctive formation patches on their shoulders &helmets, blue half circle over a green rectangle. I also am pretty certain that the 'cans' are rifle grenade cup chargers. Someone more expert will likely correct me but I don't think ballasite was used in these, but modified loads in regular .303 rounds. I would again beg to differ--this a well known shot from a series of 42Bn RHC CEF (3rd Div 1st Bde)men going to the front in 1918 and some are identified. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 11 July , 2011 Share Posted 11 July , 2011 Hi Joe, If you have more solid knowledge that is great and I stand corrected, from the picture, without being able to zoom in, I was seeing half circles and not triangles on the formation patches. Best, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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