SteveMarsdin Posted 29 June , 2011 Share Posted 29 June , 2011 Good morning, Please excuse my ignorance, I know very little about bayonets. I am trying to identify the one pictured below which has no discernible markings on it, although the style seems similar but not exactly the same to several I have seen online. There was no cover with the bayonet. I know it might not be WW1 but as I am unsure of it's age or provenance I thought someone here may point me in the right direction (mild bayonet pun !) Many thanks in anticipation of your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 29 June , 2011 Share Posted 29 June , 2011 British P1913 bayonet made by Remington Arms Co. in the USA circa 1917, usually attached to the P'14 rifle. Used in the GW mainly for training purposes and some second-line home defence units, also again in WW2. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 29 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 June , 2011 Thank you very much for your prompt reply. It's one I came across in a house clearance along with a spear and an oriental knife/sword, which definitely aren't WW1 so I'll look elsewhere for them !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 29 June , 2011 Share Posted 29 June , 2011 Steve, The scabbards for these are indentical/indistinguishable/interchangeable with those for the P1907 so, should the urge take you, it should not be too difficult to find one to go with it. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 29 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 June , 2011 Many thanks, Chris, I'll bear that in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 30 June , 2011 Share Posted 30 June , 2011 These were also issued to the Americans as the 1917 bayonet, to go with the M-1917 Enfield Rifle. They were mostly produced by Remington (over 1 million) and by Winchester (about 225,000). I'd need a good look at markings to be more specific. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 30 June , 2011 Share Posted 30 June , 2011 These were also issued to the Americans as the 1917 bayonet, to go with the M-1917 Enfield Rifle. They were mostly produced by Remington (over 1 million) and by Winchester (about 225,000). I'd need a good look at markings to be more specific. Doc I believe I am correct in saying that WWI vintage M1917 bayonets had a clearance hole in the pommel which this one lacks so on that basis it is a Pattern 13 not the very similar M1917. A later (vietnam era) run of M1917s for the combat shotguns did not have a clearance hole but had composite grips and were parkerized all over. Some late produced Pattern 13 bayonets (apparently left over at the end of the contract) were taken on charge by the US (these have the British proofs cancelled and US acceptance marks added) I am not sure if they all had the clearance hole added or not, the one I have seen in person did. The complete lack of visible markings (see OP) on this example is unusual in my experiences as the Remington stamp (in particular) is usually quite well defined. I could not tell from the pictures posted if this is a Remington or a Winchester produced bayonet but I am pretty sure it was produced as a Pattern 13 because of the absence of clearing hole. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 30 June , 2011 Share Posted 30 June , 2011 Interesting, Chris. Thanks. I am not a bayonet expert, and I was under the impression that the M1917 (US) and the M1913 (UK) were identical. Thanks for the correction. I live and learn, and will have to start looking for clearance holes. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 30 June , 2011 Share Posted 30 June , 2011 My Remmington & Winchester made P1913s do not have oil hole although my Vickerts made P1913 does. I also have a Remmington made P1913 with cancelled marks then US marked, I am not at home at the moment but I am nearly certain that it has no hole either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 30 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 June , 2011 Thank you all, I looked below the knuckle guard on the bayonet. on both sides, with an eyeglass. i couldn't see any marks or traces of marks, although the blade is very worn (albeit still very sharp). I'll look again tomorrow ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 July , 2011 Share Posted 1 July , 2011 As a rule the P1913's had no clearance hole, while the M1917 versions did have it (the hole is shown as being included in the official US design sheet pattern) However like most rules they can be broken, and there is always the rare exception which does occur from time to time due to the vagaries of production and use. At the end of the British P'13 contract there were stocks of finished, partly finished and unfinished bayonets and blades which remained in store at Remington. These stocks of bayonets and unfinished parts were then purchased by the US government and incorporated into the ongoing production for the M1917 rifles etc. So now it is possible to find examples of bayonets from this transitional period that exhibit a variety of different markings and styles, and both British and US stamps. You get the normal British inspected P'13s with the US overstamp, also P'13s with US inspection marks, and even a few unfinished bayonets that got the full US markings. It is these latter examples which became the exception to the above rule - in every sense they are a P1913 (without the hole) but they eventually received all US stamps. So the only indication they were ever an actual P1913 bayonet is that they never received the clearance hole, while all the later M1917's did. One of these shown HERE Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 1 July , 2011 Share Posted 1 July , 2011 4 P1913s- Wincester, Vickers, Remmington (US marked) & Remmington (Brit marked) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 1 July , 2011 Share Posted 1 July , 2011 Interesting (in a anorak sort of way) that the grip screws run through the handles differnt ways; the two Remingtons one way and the Vickers and Winchester the other. off to check mine! Chris (PS nice range of scabbard variations too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 2 July , 2011 Share Posted 2 July , 2011 4 P1913s- Wincester, Vickers, Remmington (US marked) & Remmington (Brit marked) Aleck, the grip screws on the two Remingtons appear to have been incorrectly replaced at some point.? I should also add that the small number of Vickers P1913 bayonets are also the exception to the rule. (Like yours.!) These bayonets being made by Vickers in Britain, after the requirement for the clearance holes had been brought into force. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 2 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2011 Thank you for all thiswealth of information. On closer inspection there are perhaps traces of marks on one of the sides; There seems to be an "A" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 2 July , 2011 Share Posted 2 July , 2011 The mark you can see is "Crown over number over A" which is the stamp of the British inspector at the factory, the "A" signifying "America". If you can manage to read the number it will probably be possible to tell which manufacturer made it. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 2 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2011 Thanks Tony, I've rotated and enhanced the image. There is perhaps a "3" underneath the crown and above the "A", plus some other markings to the right (another "A" or inverted "V" ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 3 July , 2011 Share Posted 3 July , 2011 If you can manage to read the number it will probably be possible to tell which manufacturer made it. Regards TonyE For Steve's benefit I have messed with his image of the markings to help illustrate what he should be looking for. There are 2 partly visible crowned British inspection marks (as Tony described) to be found within the red marked areas. Also just to the right of the lower inspection mark is the 'bend test' X marking, shaped similar to the purple illustration. These markings and the style in which they have been placed confirm that it is a Remington P1913, (please see post #2.?) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 3 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2011 Fantastic, Thanks for that "Shipping", the specialist knowledge on this Forum is amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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