182nd Brigade, RFA, A Battery, - What information?

[Guest JohnnyCanuck]

I'm trying to find out more on the 182nd Brigade, RFA, of which my grandfather was a member. Gunner Victor Buccini, 36019, enlisted on 7 July 1915 (at the age of 16), and was stationed with this brigade at Fulham. In September they went to camp at Borden, and embarked for France in February, 1916, arriving on the 17th of that month. I'd be most appreciative of any information anyone can provide on this unit, and also whether anyone knows if the RFA has an archive, which might include serving members records? His younger sister, in her recollections for a family history, stated that he had been mentioned in dispatches. I'm new to researching British Military records - for service records, or regimental and brigade histories. Any pointers would be great. Thanks!

[Arthur]

The 56th. [1st. London] Div., Artillery [i, II and III Bdes,] concentrated in Jan, and were attached to the 16th. [irish] Div., at Bordon, from 1st. Jan, - 25th. Feb, 1916:

They disembarked at Le Harve on 19th Feb, 1916 and joined the 16th. [irish] Div., on 22nd. Feb,.

On 2nd. Feb, 1916 the Bde., was reorganized. ‘D’ Bty., was transferred and became ‘C’ Bty., 77th. [LXXVII] Bde., and ‘B’ [H] Bty., [LXXVII] Bde., joined and became ‘D’ [H] Bty., of the Bde.

On 27th. Aug, 1916 the 182nd. [CLXXXII] Bde,. was broken up. ‘D’ [H] Bty., joined and became ‘C’ [H] Bty., 77th. [LXXVII] Bde.,

One section of ‘A’ Bty., joined and made up ‘A’ Bty.,177th. [CLXXVII] Bde.,

One section of ‘B’ Bty., joined and made up ‘B’ Bty., 177th. [CLXXVII] Bde.,

One section of ‘B’ Bty., joined and made up ‘C’ Bty., 177th. [CLXXVII] Bde.,

One section of ‘C’ Bty., joined and made up ‘B’ Bty., 180th. [CLXXX] Bde.,

One section of ‘C’ Bty., joined and made up ‘C’ Bty., 180th. [CLXXX] Bde.,

Arthur

[Arthur]

Error with information sent earlier. Faulty section should have read:

On 2nd. June, 1916 the Bde., was reorganized. ‘D’ Bty., was transferred and became ‘C’ Bty., 77th. [LXXVII] Bde., and ‘B’ [H] Bty., [LXXVII] Bde., joined and became ‘D’ [H] Bty.,

Not: On 2nd. Feb, 1916.

Apologies

Arthur

[AOK4]

Johnny,

The war diary of the 182nd Brigade, RFA can be found at the Public Record Office, Kew under WO95/1963 for the period February till July 1916.

Perhaps you can also look for his personal file there? I don't have any experience with that, but you can find some hints on the excellent website of Chris Baker to learn more about the military carreer of an ancestor.

Jan

[Guest JohnnyCanuck]

Arthur and Jan;

Thank you both, for the information which you've sent. I'm still trying to sort out the military structure within the Artillery branches, as opposed to the Infantry, for example - with which I'm a little more familiar. In my Canadian youth (more than a few years ago), I spent three years in a cadet unit, and a year with a militia unit - both same regiment, and infantry. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but as I understand - an Artillery Brigade would be somewhat comparable to an Infantry Battalion, while an Artillery Battery would be roughly equivalent to an Infantry Company. If that reasoning allows, then an Artillery Section would approximate an Infantry Platoon, only larger on strength, and less in number of sections as opposed to platoons. An Artillery Section would have no comparable resemblance to an Infantry Section. I'll string out the Infantry structure as I remember, and follow it with Artillery as I understand it.

Inf -- Section - Platoon (4 Sect) - Company (4 Plat) - Battalion (4 Comp) - Division (4 Batt)

Art -- Section - Battery (3 Sect) - Brigade (3 Btry) - Division (3 Field Brig, 1 Howitzer Brig)

As I understand what you sent Arthur, the 182nd Brigade, RFA was part of the 56th (1st London) Division. Do I understand correctly that this was an Artillery Division, with 3 Brigades, one being the 182nd? This 56th Division was then attached to the 16th (Irish) Division - this being an Infantry Division? I sort of follow, from the info you sent, Arthur, that 182nd was occasionally looted for Batteries, to go to other Brigades, namely the 77th, 177th, and 180th. They also, in turn, received other Batteries. Are there other sites besides Chris Baker's site, which provide information about the RFA Brigades? I can't seem to locate any of these particular Brigades in his list.

Also, Jan, the reference numbers at Kew, for the 182nd - do you know that from your research at Kew, or is there an index of holdings somewhere online to refer to?

Thanks again, gentlemen!

Johnny Canuck

[AOK4]

Johnny,

There is an online index of the files kept at the PRO (check here).

There were in 1916 three different artillery brigades attached to one (infantry) division. These brigades belonged just as the infantry brigades (4 to 3 (from 1918 on) infantry battalions) to one certain infantry division for most of the time. I do not know if there were also independent artillery brigades in the English army 1914-1918.

There must be people out here who have a far better knowledge of the British army in 1914-1918 than me...

Regards,

Jan

[Arthur]

Hi Johnny,

I am no expert in these matters even though I was able to give you a breakdown on the 182nd. Bde R.F.A. However, from the information that I have, and I hope that it will help sort out your query! Is as follows:

The structure of an Artillery Brigade:

Bde-Divs, R.F.A. was formed around March 1900 and they consisted of three Btys. In 1903 they were called Bdes. During WWI the Bdes, were mostly augmented to four Btys., each equipped with four guns.

On the consolidation of the R.A. in 1924 they were designated as Fld. Bdes, R. A. This was to change again around the beginning of WWII when these Bdes., were re-organized as Fld. Regts., R.A. and comprised of two linked Btys.

During 1941-42 the Fld. Regts, R.A. were re-organised on a three Bty basis and this remained the case remained throughout the general re-numbering of 1947.

Questions Raised:

Q. As I understand what you sent Arthur, the 182nd Brigade, RFA was part of the 56th (1st London) Division.

A.This Division was slowly being broken up, although it was later to reform in France during Feb., 1916. Between Sept., 1914 - Jan., 1915 the 1st London Bde embarked for garrison duty at Malta. The 2nd London Bde., was broken up in November 1914 after three Bns., had been transferred to the 4th London Bde., 47th. [2nd London] Div. The 3rd London Bde., was broken up in April 1915 when two Bns., went to France and two bns., joined the E. Midland Bde., E Anglian Div.

Q. Do I understand correctly that this was an Artillery Division, with 3 Brigades, one being the 182nd?

A. [1] No! They were not an Artillery Div. They were Divisional Artillery, in other word artillery that were attached to a division.

[2] There were four Bdes., attached to a Div., until 1917 when they are shown as only having two Bdes.

Q. This 56th Division was then attached to the 16th (Irish) Division - this being an Infantry Division?

A. No just the Divisional Artillery! The above two answers will answer this question for you.

Q. I sort of follow, from the info you sent, Arthur, that 182nd was occasionally looted for Batteries, to go to other Brigades, namely the 77th, 177th, and 180th. They also, in turn, received other Batteries.

A. [1] I don’t really know why ‘D’ Bty., was transferred and became ‘C’ Bty., 77th. [LXXVII] Bde., and ‘B’ [H] Bty., [LXXVII] Bde., joined and became ‘D’ [H] Bty., of the Bde. As there seemed to be quite a lot of movements like this take place.

As for the 77th, 177th and 180th Bdes:

[1] 77th. Bde: ‘D’ [H] Bty., joined and became ‘C’ [H] Bty., 77th. [LXXVII] Bde., This change took place before the Bde., was broken up.

[2] 177th and 180th Bdes:

182nd. [CLXXXII] Bde,. was broken up on the reorganization of the Bdes. which then equipped their new Btys with six guns instead of four.

One section of ‘A’ Bty., joined and made up ‘A’ Bty.,177th. [CLXXVII] Bde.,

One section of ‘B’ Bty., joined and made up ‘B’ Bty., 177th. [CLXXVII] Bde.,

One section of ‘B’ Bty., joined and made up ‘C’ Bty., 177th. [CLXXVII] Bde.,

One section of ‘A’ Bty., joined and made up ‘A’ Bty.,180th. [CLXXX] Bde.,

One section of ‘C’ Bty., joined and made up ‘B’ Bty., 180th. [CLXXX] Bde.,

One section of ‘C’ Bty., joined and made up ‘C’ Bty., 180th. [CLXXX] Bde.,

Q. Are there other sites besides Chris Baker's site, which provide information about the RFA Brigades?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. I can't seem to locate any of these particular Brigades in his list.

A. 177th. and the 180th. Both of these Bdes were attached to the 16th. [irish] Bde.

Please note that that there were 2nd line Bdes., for instance check the 47th. [2nd. London] Div., and you will find the 282nd Bde. R.F.A.

I hope that this will help clarify the points you have raised.

Arthur

[bmac]

Please note that that there were 2nd line Bdes., for instance check the 47th. [2nd. London] Div., and you will find the 282nd Bde. R.F.A.

The 282nd Brigade was originally the 1/3rd London Brigade RFA (re-designated 282 Bde on 6th May 1916). It became the 282nd Army Bde, RFA on Jan 20th 1917. It joined the 56th (1st London) Division in February 1916 after a temporary attachment to the 47th (2nd London) Division. It remained with the 56th until Jan 1917.

[Arthur]

Yes! I am aware of this.

Arthur

[Guest JohnnyCanuck]

Jan - thanks for the reference for the PRO. I've done some preliminary checking on that site, to get a feel for what's there. Unfortunately, being in Canada makes it difficult to go there and check it out. I'll just keep my eyes open for someone going down, willing to do some quick checks, to see what's actually there.

Arthur - Yes, it does clarify it some. It'll take a little time to put it all into perspective for me, though your information has certainly put me some steps ahead. I'll have to check with some others in the family, and see if there's any additional information they might have on my grandfather's service. The note about D Battery going to the 77th, I might have a possible answer to. Your reference to Brig being augmented to 4 Batt may provide the clue to that particular movement. As I recall reading somewhere, when the Brig were being reformed, each had a Howitzer(H) Batt included. If 182nd had 4 Field Batt in 1916, then it would have made sense to move one elsewhere (whoever needed one, like the 77th), in return receiving a (H) Batt from them (did they have an extra one at the time?).

I still need to pin down this Brig somehow, and what happened during it's disbursement, and when the Batt went to the new Brig, what Div they went to. If I understood that there were 3 Sections in a Batt, was I wrong there, or were there only two at the time? I will try and arrange to have someone check my grandfather's medal index, as I have his service number. Perhaps that'll provide some more needed clues.

Thanks gentlemen, for the additional info.

Al