Garron Posted 26 June , 2011 Share Posted 26 June , 2011 Hey pals As some of you might know, my bayonet collecting is going with the idea ' an example of each combat nation' I went to a militaria store one day last week looking for something for a pal, I came home with something for myself too Both of these were in a bargain bin of bayonet £20 each as they both have faults, Im still in the process of cleaning The Turkish 1890 up, the scabbard is rough and leather has shrunk so the bayonet no longer fits completely. The Lebel bayonet is missing the last 1mm of the blade and didn't have a scabbard. But for £20 each... how could I say no! I don't collect mint condition as to me they have no history.... these are prefect for me. Anyway here are the pics. So I now need, Russia, Belgium, Serbia (not going to be easy) Japan and Portual and my list in complete. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 26 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2011 Other pic (stupid 100kb limit) Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 June , 2011 Share Posted 26 June , 2011 Those are decent examples I think Gaz. Far better than relic. I have three or four epee bayonets and there is slight variation in the length of them. I do not recall the details but I believe the steel handled ones (like yours) are less common than the brass - there are also variants (later)without the quillon if you are looking for an excuse to get more! Scabbards for these sometimes pop up on Ebay on their own so keep your eyes peeleed. Careful it is not shortened though (pre WWII) as this is sometimes omitted in the description and photos make it hard to judge. The Arisaka bayonet should not be a problem (good luck working out the dating system though), nor the Nagant (just beware the 91/30 varaint). Belgian mauser more difficult if my experience is anything to go by. M1905 for the springfield will be ridiculously overpriced no matter what. What pattern did the Serbs use? I would have thought late war the epee (I think the French reequipped them - in exile) and early perhaps a Nagant? or.... Good finds I reckon. chris PS If you are going for bayonets used in the field then I think the Portugese would be the p1907, I think this is what the expeditionary force were armed with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 26 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2011 Thanks Chris, I've only cleaned 1 side of the 1890 as you can see in the pics. So it should come up a little better when I get around to it. Actually Serbia has their own model 1899 bayonet. One of the only doubled edged Mauser bayonets. Portugal when fighting in South East Africa against the Germans used their own, Mauser-Vergueiro rifles, with the 1904 bayonet. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 June , 2011 Share Posted 26 June , 2011 Thanks Chris, Portugal when fighting in South East Africa against the Germans used their own, Mauser-Vergueiro rifles, with the 1904 bayonet. Gaz Quite correct! I was (narrowly) thinking Western Front. I was not aware of the Serbian 1899 bayonet - to what model of Mauser was it fitted? Oh dear... If I broaden things to include the African theatres, all manner of new and interesting rifles appear legitimate (and expensive) additions. Shhhhhhh... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 27 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2011 Chris. Im trying to not double up on any types keep them unique (though the 1907, P13/m1917 and type 30 are a slight hiccup to the plan ) From the little info that is out there, (not many people seem to write on Serbian firearms) I think its pretty much the Chilean M1895 with some modifications. It was chambered for the 7mm round. All I've really been able to find out is that it was bought because the factories in German were already tooled up to make them so could be delivered right away. Most seem to have been converted to 7.92 in later life. It was only after the exile that they were issued French weapons, but by the sounds of it the Serbian army in WW1 used just about whatever they could get their hands on, Mosins, Mannlichers Mauser and even Russian Berdan rifles. Seems front line got the best equipment and the rear got the scraping from the bottom of the barrel. This give a little technical info on it, bottom of the linked page. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Eq2Dnj4sDZIC&pg=PA308&lpg=PA308&dq=Serbian+1899+rifle&source=bl&ots=sbmEj9KCvN&sig=9z96uT9KfU-Ougvpz2lrQ6HGSWU&hl=en&ei=HMYHTtW0JsG98gP3puTmDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=Serbian%201899%20rifle&f=false You could even get away with some 577.450 calibre guns there Chris Pretty sure they were used in the African theatre. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 June , 2011 Share Posted 27 June , 2011 Hi Gaz, some nice pickups there - you did well.! Be careful with the cleaning though, I think I liked the patina on the M1890 in the 'before' shot .... Sometimes the well aged bayonets like that look better without too much cleaning - it shows their character. Thats just my opinion though. Here is a LINK that should give you all you ever needed to know on the Serbian weapons. Great photos courtesy of JPS as always.! PS. Regarding the handles on your Mle1886 epee bayonet, they are the original handles made from German nickel silver (or maillechort). After the war started, the supply of this product was obviously halted, requiring the French to improvise with handles of brass, iron and steel. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 27 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2011 Thanks S>S, I think I used up my yearly quota of luck finding them at that price. That guy has an amazing collection, he could open a museum. Green with envy comes to mind. One side of the bayonet had more patina than the other anyway, wasn't really down to the cleaning. I just look all the surface gunk off and it started to shine. All of my bayonets are aged well, like I said earlier mint condition are nice but for me I don't see any history, they are pushing 100 years old after all. There was also a regimentally marked S98 'quillback' there for £45 alas no scabbard though, might give him a ring and ask to put it away and pay next payday. ahhh man! what have I become, I'm a bayonet junkie now Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 June , 2011 Share Posted 27 June , 2011 Don't worry Gaz. Keep buying them at that price and you'll be looking like more of an 'investor' than a bayonet collector .... After all, you can always give them a clean and a tidy up and then trade them on .... err, for something you really want.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 27 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2011 My Father somehow came around to the idea of me collecting after I told him the value of some things I'd pick up on the cheap, he see's £££/$$$, I see history So far I've got, British - 1907 and 3 1888 (they multiplied like rabbits) US - P13 with US markings French - 1886 and Gras 1874 Austria - M95 Italy - M91/97TS (battered and somewhat bent example) Turkey - M1890 German - S98/05Na Im going to Belgium in August with Tafski on one of his tours so will keep an eye out over there for a Belgian bayonet. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 June , 2011 Share Posted 27 June , 2011 Hi Garron, Only UKL 20 for a Turkish M1890 with scabbard! Jeesh!!! Usually not less than UKL 90 over here in Turkey - and that's without scabbard! Does the pommel have the Sultan's stamp? Any idea who made it and what year? Trajan Edit: just did a quick check of local antique shop man - he has one M1890 with scabbard locket only, 'going cheap' to yours truly if want to pay the equivalent of UKL 72... !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 June , 2011 Share Posted 27 June , 2011 Garron, Just checked my notes - I have a Lebel like yours - and the best place I know for more details is: http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/38381 with one post giving an extensive discussion of the Lebel including the French (and English translation) of the song the soldier's sang about the blade they called the 'Rosalie' Yours is an earlyish one: "On the 25th of October of 1914 German nickel silver was substituted with brass (laiton) or aluminum bronze (bronze d'aluminium) normally called tambak or jaune (yellow) and in July of 1917 steel (acier) and grey cast iron (fonte grise) handles substituted all previous metals." Best, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 27 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2011 Hey Trajan, Thanks, the scabbard isn't in great condition and stinks terribly its ziplocked baged up until I work out a way to clean it. Yes it has the Sultans stamp, I cannot photograph them as my camera doesn't like close ups but it and other stamps are there. from this thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=161354&st=0 It looks like its a J.P. Sauer & Sohn dated 1313 so about 1897 (give a take a year) Its the same as Shippingsteel's 5th post in that thread. It's a little hard to see on mine as there is some pitting ect to obscure the markings. Thats a great thread on the 1886 bayonet, thats bookmarked for future reference. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 June , 2011 Share Posted 28 June , 2011 Hey Trajan, Thanks, the scabbard isn't in great condition and stinks terribly its ziplocked baged up until I work out a way to clean it. Yes it has the Sultans stamp, I cannot photograph them as my camera doesn't like close ups but it and other stamps are there. from this thread http://1914-1918.inv...pic=161354&st=0 It looks like its a J.P. Sauer & Sohn dated 1313 so about 1897 (give a take a year) Its the same as Shippingsteel's 5th post in that thread. It's a little hard to see on mine as there is some pitting ect to obscure the markings. Thats a great thread on the 1886 bayonet, thats bookmarked for future reference. Gaz Hi, Still sitting here and realising that what I REALLY miss about the UK apart from Sat/Sun pub lunches with the paper and availablity of Guiness, other good beers, and pork products, is the existence of cheap bayonets! To continue. Scabbard (leather) care is somewhere on another thread on GWF (I think!). Not straightforward and best (really, really) to seek museum help. Now to the Turk 1890. I have a shortened Turk 1890 dated 1311 and a complete 1890 dated 1312. They are by different makers and the blade width of the 1312 is one mm narrower at the cross guard... I am wondering (archaeological mind at work) if this might be artefactual evidence of a change in contract for cost reasons. That is, the maker of the 1311 bayonet lost a contract to the maker of the 1312 bayonet who was making them narrower to save money... Now, I am not going to say who made the two I have or their widthe: but I would like very much to know the mm blade width of yours - and of any other GWF members with Turk 1890's who might be following this! The final analysis might not be a major contribution to the study of Ottoman/German trade history but who knows!!!??? Trajan PS: Yes, the Lebel thread is good - any closer to exactly dating yours from handle type and official marks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 28 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 June , 2011 Hi Trajan, At the ricasso measured on the markings, it measures 26mm. No I haven't had time yet, it is on the to do list Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 June , 2011 Share Posted 28 June , 2011 To help date the early Lebel bayonets you need to pay particular attention to the style of the press catch mechanism, and the manner in which the handle is attached. There were some variations in these fixtures in the early production, which can now be used to narrow down the dates to the period in which it was manufactured. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 29 June , 2011 Share Posted 29 June , 2011 Excellent finds Garron - especially the 1890! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 June , 2011 Share Posted 29 June , 2011 Hi Trajan, At the ricasso measured on the markings, it measures 26mm. Gaz Thanks Gaz - now can I bother you with another technical question? My 1311 bayonet (i.e, about August 1893/ July 1894) has a brass liner (about 1 mm thick) between the tang and the pommel, my 1312 (i.e., July 1894/June 1895) does NOT. What about your 1313 (i.e, July 1895/June 1896)? BTW: a good conversion site for Islamic/Gregorian calendars is http://www.sizes.com...e/cal_islam.htm Best, Trajan (who is still green with envy at these bargains...!) EDIT: remember my 1311 and 1312 are different makers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 June , 2011 Share Posted 29 June , 2011 BTW. If anyone out there does have a spare Turkish M1890 leather scabbard, yes, I am interested! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 29 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 June , 2011 Hi Trajan, It is no bother at all. Yes it does have the little brass between the tang and pommel. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS0000 Posted 13 July , 2011 Share Posted 13 July , 2011 So I now need, Russia, Belgium, Serbia (not going to be easy) Japan and Portual and my list in complete. Gaz Oh...., you know it won't stop there. Each country had so many different variations. Just wait till you start on the German Ersatz. Addictive is not the word for it! Best regards! - Mike PS - On the Belgian, the Model 1916 will generally be the easiest and cheapest to find..., generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 13 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 July , 2011 I know it wont, I'm already eyeing up other German bayonets. You could have a whole collection based on Germany alone. Never known an army to field so many types S84/98, S98 S89/02 S98/05, S14 plus the ones I am forgetting, then you include; n/A, a/A, Sawback and sawback removed, you end up with a long list of wants thats without the Erstaz to complicate it all. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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