10th btn Welsh regt

[RammyLad1]

If you have the diary for the 10th btn could you provide any details for the whereabouts for the 19th march 1916,in particular any reference to Lieut Lionel White who was killed in action on that day.

Duncan

[jay dubaya]

Can't help with the diary Duncan, but there is a group photo here which includes Lt. Lionel White

Jon

[RammyLad1]

Hi Jon

Thanks for the link.GWF member Highwood has kindly provided me with a photo of Lieut Whites grave in France. Trying to find out what action he would have been killed in.I will look at buying the 38th divisions history,as being an officer there must be some mention of him in there.

Regards Duncan

[Bernard_Lewis]

They were close to Gorre - they were in and out of the trenches relieving/being relieved by the 13th Welsh. For the 19 March 1916 the WD just says 'Normal routine in trenches'.

Just in case - you have the right date and its not the RWF rather than the Welsh? I'm sure you're right but just in case its a typo etc. I thought that an officer fatality would have been mentioned.

Bernard

[RammyLad1]

Hi Bernard

Thank you for the reply,

The inscription on his family grave at Holcombe church in Ramsbottom reads " Also of their son Lieut Lionel White ( 10th Welsh Regt ) who was killed in action at Givenchy,march 19th 1916. Aged 22 years.

Duncan

[Bernard_Lewis]

The History of the Welsh Regiment (Whitehorne and Marden) simply list him as killed. The local press in his home town might have given him a mention.

Bernard

[clive_hughes]

Duncan,

You can save your money as regards the 38th Divisional History (in terms of this man at any rate) - it is one of the smallest and slimmest of all the WW1 Div histories and comparatively few officers under Lt.-Col. rank are mentioned.

We do have members on the Forum who have an interest in the 10th (1st Rhondda) Welsh Regt, and if they spot your headline topic they might contribute something more. Local newspapers of the period might also be valuable in this context.

LST_164

[RammyLad1]

LST_164

Thanks for that , have looked in the Ramsbottom observer and there is no mention of him which surprises me as being an officer you would think there would be.Lets hope that someone on the forum can shed some more light on this matter.

Regards Duncan.

[RammyLad1]

Bumping this thread up again to update.

Rechecked my photos of the Ramsbottom Observer ( April 7th 1916 ) and found this information tucked away in a corner.

A Scholar- Soldiers Death

Lieut L White

News of the death in France of Lieut. White of the Welsh Regiment has reached his mother, who resides at Chesterfield rd, North Shore, Blackpool, deceased, who was 22 years of age, was a son of the late Sergt. Instructor Charles White formally instructor to K company of the 2nd V.R. East Lancs regiment, at the time the barracks were in bolton street Ramsbottom.

Lieut White was studying at Cambridge at the time of his enlistment. Whilst at Blackpool secondary school he had a most successful career, winning the Blackpool university exhibition in 1911. Two of his brothers are in the army, one a second Lieutenant in the Kings Liverpool Regiment, at Blackpool. Their father will be remembered by many in Ramsbottom who were associated with the old volunteer movement.

Still trying to find out how Lionel White was killed in action. Forum member, seasider ( Bob ) has given me the name of the local Blackpool newspaper of the period so its on to Blackpool to see if that connection bears any fruit.

Duncan

[Bernard_Lewis]

Its possibly a long shot but your best chance might still be IF a letter about the death from another soldier was sent to the parents and found its way into the local press.

Bernard

[clive_hughes]

If he was studying at Cambridge, there might be College/University sources for him - ask member rflory who has an ongoing thread offering look-ups of such published School Roll of Honour material under "Classic Threads".

LST_164

[RammyLad1]

Bernard

Hopefully something may be in the Blackpool evening Gazette, the 1901 census shows the family as living at 14 Chesterfield road, Blackpool, yet the family grave is in Ramsbottom, the father Charles White passed away in 1913, and is buried at Holcombe church Ramsbottom , yet Lionels MIC has his mothers address in Blackpool . Perhaps I'm missing something here. It would be interesting to find out which brother was a second Lieutenant in the Kings Liverpool regt, Herbert T White or Louis C White

Clive

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll follow that up. Every small piece of information wherever it comes from will help in this case. I still find it hard to believe that being an officer Lionel White isn't mentioned in the war diary for the 10th ( 1st Rhondda) battalion. SDGW has him as Temp Lieut so I wonder if this is the reason?

Duncan

[RammyLad1]

With Thanks to new forum member BethCred, who is a relative of Lionel White, she has provided me with the details surrounding his death. A letter was sent to his mother which she has by P E Ricketts,

" you will have heard before this of the sad death of your son. Whilst doing his duty in the front line on the 19th an unfortunately well aimed rifle grenade hit him in the back killing him instantaneously. His loss will be felt not only by his company but by the whole of the battalion, officers and men , and I feel he will be difficult indeed to replace. Beneath his quiet exterior I had found a strength of character and tenacity of purpose which I had not at first suspected, but which afterwards I had frequently reason to appreciate and admire ; and I can honestly say I have seldom met a man I could so thoroughly trust and rely on to carry out any task however difficult or strenuous. Only the day before his death he had volunteered for a duty which no one but those of the stoutest heart would think of attempting, and I deplore his loss more than I can say. He now lies with many another British hero who has laid down his life for his country in the little cemetery at Givenchy

P E Ricketts

I have downloaded the diary for the 10th Btn and still find it incredible that it only states " normal routine in the trenches"

My inclination is that Lt Lionel White was killed as a result of a trench raid and whilst returning to his own lines was a victim of the above said rifle grenade in the back, although there is no written evidence of this in the diary. It seems that nightly trench raids were carried out.

As an aside Lt Col P E Ricketts who wrote the letter to Lionels mother was, according to the diary, wounded in an attack by the Btn on Mametz wood on 10 July 1916 on the slope at 4:45 am. Did he recover from his wounds?

Duncan