Mannlicher 1895 bayonet

[trajan]

In my scourings of the very few and extremely overpriced local antique shops I have come across (and bought) two Mannlicher 1895 bayonets, one FGGY Budapest made for Bulgaria, the other OEGW made for Greece (I assume for the Greek Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 rifle - but the muzzle ring is the same diameter as the Bulgarian one so a post WWI modification?).

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone on GWF knew why these Mannlicher bayonets had an 'upside blade', i.e., blade facing up towards the muzzle loop. My own limited bayonet practice was of the 'In, twist, out, butt 1, butt 2, slash' variety and if memory serves me well there was a tendency for the bayonet blade (303 rifles with P1907!) to go upwards on the 'out'. Was this the reason the Mannlicher '95's are 'upside down'? If so (and I can imagine its effectiveness!), why didn't the idea spread elswehere?

A second point. I have read somewhere but cannot remember where that the Mannlicher '95 was the most common Central Powers bayonet in WWI. A 'fact' known from manufacturing records or from the greater number of soldiers in the Austro-Hungarian army and its contigent allies (i.e. Bulgaria)?

Trajan

Edit: for those lacking imagination - 'there was a tendency for the bayonet blade to go upwards on the 'out': the blunt upwards side of a regular bayonet does no more damage when withdrawn after the initial thrust - but the 'upside down' Mannlicher '95 blade WILL cut more as withdrawn.

[shippingsteel]

There was some discussion about these topics in THIS recent thread. Also some pics to further illustrate the design - I don't think anyone knows the exact reasons.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Thanks Shipping Steel - don\t know how i missed that thread!

Trajan

[trajan]

On the subject of M 95 bayonets - possibly the most widely and longest used of all bayonets - some might find this Czech web-site of interest and possible use: http://bajo.cz.sweb.cz/Bodaky_M95_121.htm

It is without a doubt one of the most comprehensive and best illustrated of all bayonet web sites I have come across!

Trajan

[jscott]

That is an absolutely superb website Trajan - if only there was an equivalent for P88s, P1907s or M989/05s. Excellent photography.

[trajan]

That is an absolutely superb website Trajan - if only there was an equivalent for P88s, P1907s or M989/05s. Excellent photography.

It is indeed! I discovered that Google translate was able to sort out some of things I wanted to know, but as a catalogue of marks, etc., it really is so useful!

Yes, it would be nice if something similar could be done for so many more things... Roy William's Collector's Book of German Bayonets Parts I and II does have some excellent photographs of loads of markings, manufacturers and units, but sadly is not indexed, nor does he explain what many of the unit markings mean: but there again, that is a minefield of its own... A catalogue of his unit marks is something I'd love to do if I could convince my univ. to let me have a sabbatical working on it! But see, for example, his Part I, pp. 430-434, with 59 detailed photographs of 98/05 maker's marks! If you don't have this book I highly recommend it. It's one of those nice books to skim through, every page a group of great bayonets lovingly photograhed in great detail - but you need to have a box of tissues handy in case of drooling...

Trajan

[jscott]

Interesting, sounds like they are excellent books. I had a quick look online and it looks as though they are fairly pricey (but not as much as some of the bayonet books that I've seen). Maybe I'll pencil these in as a future birthday/ christmas present?! Do the two books cover off all of the major German WW1 bayonets?

Cheers, J

[trajan]

Interesting, sounds like they are excellent books. I had a quick look online and it looks as though they are fairly pricey (but not as much as some of the bayonet books that I've seen). Maybe I'll pencil these in as a future birthday/ christmas present?! Do the two books cover off all of the major German WW1 bayonets?

Cheers, J

Well worth the cost - and that is speaking as a guy on a Turkish university salary with only about 20 German bayonets in his collection! Parts I and II cover everything from 1680 to 1918 (Part III will cover 1918-1945), Part I with over 500 pages (almost all captioned illustrations) on the regular issues, including the Gottscho's, and Part II with over 600 pages (again, almost all captioned illustrations) on all the Ersatz - with 111 ErSoc types alone!

Julian

[jscott]

Part 1 sounds right up my alley, looks like a very good addition to the library. Some lovely photography as you say. I'm almost scared of looking at Part 2 - the whole ersatz field is just too vast and ever-expanding to risk getting an addiction!

[trajan]

...I'm almost scared of looking at Part 2 - the whole ersatz field is just too vast and ever-expanding to risk getting an addiction!

Er, yes... According to Williams since the Afghan episode started there have been loads of these coming out from there (mainly going to the USA), if especially Ersoc's re-using some very old (even18th century British!) blades - hence his enormous number of Ersoc types far and above what Carter could have imagined! Williams and JPS of GBF both suggest that these Afghan Ersocs may have been originally sent to Turkey during WWI, and were then passed onto Afghanistan during the early Turkish Republican period. The almost complete lack of any Ersocs on the market or at the Antika Pazari here (all that I see are German or A-H captured but unaltered Russian M-N bayonets) would tend to support that idea.

However, every WWI collection should have at least one Ersatz/Ersoc, even if they are rather ugly! I have seven Ersatz bayonets proper, as they are reasonably comon here, plus another five Ersoc's in the form of Russian M-N bayonets - identifiable as German or A-H captures (and thus Ersocs!) from their scabbards, which are incredibly rare (I have both the 'German' and the 'Austrian' types). Mind you, the only time my dear 'er indoors ever really complains about my hobby is when I bring home yet another 'one of those horrible rusty ones'!

Julian

PS, yeah, I know, all the above is rather OT, but I didn't want to start a new thread as somebody would be bound to complain!

[jscott]

Sounds like quite an interesting collectors' market over there in Turkey. I do actually find the whole ersatz arena very interesting, but I have to put some limits on my collecting or things would get out of hand. I'd love to see some pics of the mosin nagant ersocs - I have an example with an Austrian scabbard and I guess its highly probable that this was a captured bayonet from the battles of 1914.

[trajan]

... I'd love to see some pics of the mosin nagant ersocs - I have an example with an Austrian scabbard and I guess its highly probable that this was a captured bayonet from the battles of 1914.

Unfortunately none of my 'captured' M-N bayonets have any German marks, and so they are identifiable only from the scabbards they came in. In other words, it's the scabbard that makes them German-issued Ersocs!

Three of my scabbards are among the most common German types, that is, the Carter EB 147 - sheet steel, zinc coated, small frog stud, and round throat and throat piece, two with the ball finial the other without, and one still with its sewn-on frog(!).The Austrian scabbards I have are also standard, steel with zinc coating, elongated frog stud, and no throat piece. I will get them tidied up one day and photographed, and then start a thread on them. Who knows, I might just find some markings other than the regular Russsian serial markings!

And for those of you reading this who want pictures now, well Lubbe has the main scabbard types (German and Austrian) on pp. 274-275, and Williams, Part II has ALL German Ersoc scabbard types on pp. 184-188. I have not yet seen any illustrated on the web except Carl OldSmithy (http://www.old-smithy.info/ - look at Erstaz bayonets) does have one type, the rarer German one with the brass frogstud.

Trajan