shippingsteel Posted 20 June , 2011 Share Posted 20 June , 2011 Just found this fairly battered old P1903 bayonet that has been stamped with plenty of markings. Looking for any suggestions as to what they all mean. I think I have identified the cancelled out regimental unit marks ( 2SR ) as belonging to the 2nd Battalion, The Cameronians (aka. Scottish Rifles) But it is the marking at the top that has me stumped. It appears to be a lonely B stamped over the normally expected serial/rack number of 912.? Then we have the markings that have been stamped into the timber grip. Looks to be the number 21 but the numerals are of different sizes.??? Any ideas what these other markings could indeed represent would be most appreciated. Thanks for any of your suggestions. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 20 June , 2011 Share Posted 20 June , 2011 Saw that on ebay mate & wondered what the markings were at the top but pic wasnt the best, now that I can see them more clearly they still have me stumped. Nearly had a bid on it myself but already have a couple of P1903s (1 british marked & the other indian marked made from old P1888 blade). Sure someone will chip in with the answer, be interesting to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 20 June , 2011 Thanks Aleck, yes I too already have a couple of bayonets myself ..... (But hey you can never have enough of these P1903's.!!) I especially like their style, and the unit marked examples really appeal to me. They also have such a tight history which does help in the research. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 June , 2011 Share Posted 20 June , 2011 I take it this came without a scabbard which might indicate the last area of use and so lead to identifying the B number? My only P1903 has similar font numbers but no preceding letter and upside down and close to the handle (where your Scottish Rifles marks are) - and it came with an Indian pattern Scabbard marked 1 5 Hants, which did serve in India and Afghanistan Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 20 June , 2011 Share Posted 20 June , 2011 At the moment Id be quite happy with a rough example of a P1903, I never seem to be able to win the auctions. (Don't worry S>S I didnt bid on that one ) I was just on ebay and saw a P1907 with a large number stamped on the grip, bit I cannot find the auction now, wonder if they are some how connected? Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2011 Hi Gaz, yes I don't know what it is but these P1903's just seem to keep coming my way, usually poorly described which does help A LOT when it comes to picking up anything on ebay.! I certainly can't complain - scabbard or no scabbard I still love 'em mainly because of their history. It just happens I have a few spare P'88 scabbards which work perfectly well with the P1903. Trajan, I think the correct P1903 scabbards are now virtually non-existent on the everyday collector market, and you'd probably have to deal privately or through a respected dealer/auction house in order to obtain one. Well I've slept on it and may now have a new idea about the markings on the grip. I'm wondering if it might be a Battalion identifier number for when the regiment is garrisoned at base during peacetime.? It seems as though the 1 may have been the original and has been 'marked out' and then the 2 stamped alongside. (I'm thinking the good old battalion rivalry with 'unexplained' bits of kit going missing, etc.! Could be a good way to stop that from happening, or help prove where it was supposed to be in the first place.?) It just seems odd that the numbers are of different size and font, so probably placed there at different times I should think. This bayonet has been reissued several times between '05 and '09 so that could be a possibility. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 June , 2011 Share Posted 21 June , 2011 Trajan, I think the correct P1903 scabbards are now virtually non-existent on the everyday collector market, and you'd probably have to deal privately or through a respected dealer/auction house in order to obtain one. Cheers, S>S Oh I'm VERY happy with my P1903 blade and its Indian scabbard with its helve loops and its unit markings for the 1/5 Hants! As I understand it the 1/5 Hants only existed 1914/1915-1919 - and so if 'correct' P 1903 scabbards are rare, then I guess this is even rarer! Sad thing is that the belt-loop part of the scabbard was almost torn off from the actual scabbard part evidently not long before I bought it - but that is not visible when seen from the front. Only other complaint is that one of the grip rivets is missing - any idea where I can get a spare one??!! BTW, I think you said in another post that many of these P1903's now appearing on the market are coming from Afghanistan? That could certainly be the case with mine as Turkey does have troops serving there. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2011 Trajan when you say 'Indian pattern scabbard' do you mean like the one shown below at the bottom.? The helve loop on this one was also coming apart.! I'm afraid if your P1903 has a grip rivet missing you may have an identification problem there - the P1903 should have the screws holding the grips in place.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 June , 2011 Share Posted 21 June , 2011 Yes, my P 1903 scabbard is like your lower one, and both of the helve straps on mine are ok - the problem with my scabbard is a diagonal tear that has nearly separated the belt-loop part of the scabbard from the sheath proper: this runs from a point roughly behind the quillion downwards to the other side just below where the scabbard meets up with the bayonet's muzzle hole. That apart, in addition to the 1/5 Hants stamp on the back of the belt-loop part, there are some other markings stamped into the back of scabbard leather and I will see if I can make any sense of these when I get home from work later today. Oh, and yes, sorry, I should have said a missing screw not a missing rivet! NB: as I said in an earlier post the 1/5 Hants were in India and Afghanistan and so I can easily see how this could have come recently from Afghanistan via a soldier's haversack. Best, Trajan PS: The bayonet, BTW, has a November 1904 date stamp and no re-issue mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 June , 2011 Share Posted 21 June , 2011 Well home now and the leather of my P1903 scabbard is very crackled. Possibly a leather restorer might improve it? The '1 5 HANTS' stamp on the back of the belt loop part is clear. On the back of the locket part the leather is stamped 089, the bayonet is stamped 849 (upside down) on the base of the pommel next to the grip so not matching... The back of the scabbard is stamped on one side of the seam only, with letters 'Co' (thus) then an uncertain letter then a space and then two more letters or numbers, that I cannot read. This does not help you in any way with your P1903! I know that but perhaps someone, somewhere, might start to make a data base of these bits of information so that we can all learn more! - don't forget I am an archaeologist by trade and we love data sets like this as a way of learning about the past from artefacts! trajan EDIT: would still like information on getting replacement screw for the grips! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 21 June , 2011 Share Posted 21 June , 2011 I am the same with 1888's, it was one of the first bayonets I bought, I have my eye on a nice example of an 1888 at a dealers, according to him 1888's are not popular so its priced quite low (£50 with scabbard) Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 21 June , 2011 Share Posted 21 June , 2011 I am the same with 1888's, it was one of the first bayonets I bought, I have my eye on a nice example of an 1888 at a dealers, according to him 1888's are not popular so its priced quite low (£50 with scabbard) Gaz Gaz If you don't want it let me know. Having just acquired a nice L-E Mark I* I need a P.'88 to complete it. Alternatively if you come across another one let me know. Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 22 June , 2011 Share Posted 22 June , 2011 S/S is quite right to fit Patt. '03 bayonets with the Land Pattern 1888 Mark I scabbard as there can be little doubt that this was the original issue with most bayonets, certainly to Line Regiments. The Patt. '03 Bandolier Equipment was influenced by the experience in the Boer War, but lacked carrying capacity, both for ammuntion and generally, as it had a great coat carrier instead of a valise. It was hence not popular with Infantry, although the Cavalry set was better as the unfortunate horse did most of the work! Most of this equipment ended up being used by the Indian Army, and by South African Mounted Infantry units in German East Africa. The Royal Navy, of course used it's own version of the P.'03 scabbard, although I've only ever owned one example of these. My own surviving '03 is marked to the 1st Bedfords and has the P.1888 scabbard. It in excellent condition with a very bright blade and 80% of it's original blueing. Cheers - S.W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2011 Yes that's right SW, there is a List of Changes reference para 11716 which coincided with the introduction of the P1903 bayonet that stated :- "The following scabbards are interchangeable on the P1903 - Scabbard, sword bayonet, Patt. 1888 Mk I (Common) Scabbard, sword bayonet, Patt. 1888 Mk II (Land) Scabbard, sword bayonet, Patt. 1888 Naval, Mk I So yes they are certainly 'correct' with both types of scabbard. Also with the number of P'88 blades that were converted into the P'03, there would have been quite a surplus of the P'88 scabbards readily available for use. Here is a pic of one of my other P1903 bayonets that was marked to a RE company that was present for the Somme battles in 1916. (also posted previously) I was somewhat chuffed to find that TonyE had thought enough of it to lift this image and include it in his slideshow presentation at the IWM earlier this year .... (and all without due credits or permissions of course) ..... hmmm, never mind - I know where he lives, but I don't know whether he'll see me coming .... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 23 June , 2011 Share Posted 23 June , 2011 You are quite right, I should have given you a credit, I apologise. However, you did put the picture in the public domain. I do exactly the same thing and find my ammo pictures being used all over the place as well. I don't know whether that is right or wrong, but it seems to be the way of the web. None of us specifically put a copyright notice on the pictures we post here. Cheers tonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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