Red tunic date?

[hadfield]

Hi all,

I have a British Red Tunic stamped on the inside 2nd Lincs with Broad Arrow stamps on the inside of the arms and other numbers stamps in the inside of the back. It has Lincolnshire regiment buttons on the front but no badges etc elsewhere, but you can see where they have been. The only thing that distinguishes this tunic from the other standard tunics of this type is are the all white epaulettes. Inside it does have a worn paper label, but no printing is legible on it . If my camera was working I would have uploaded a picture of it. Hope you can give it a rough date.

Regs

Brimstone

[FROGSMILE]

Hi all,

I have a British Red Tunic stamped on the inside 2nd Lincs with Broad Arrow stamps on the inside of the arms and other numbers stamps in the inside of the back. It has Lincolnshire regiment buttons on the front but no badges etc elsewhere, but you can see where they have been. The only thing that distinguishes this tunic from the other standard tunics of this type is are the all white epaulettes. Inside it does have a worn paper label, but no printing is legible on it . If my camera was working I would have uploaded a picture of it. Hope you can give it a rough date.

Regs

Brimstone

Are there pockets? How many buttons and what are the shapes of the cuffs. Are they plain, or white and are they shaped with a point up towards the shoulders or in a horizontal line?

[FROGSMILE]

Or like this?

[VALERY]

Bonjour,

If I can add my two cents;

Your jacket could be either a M 1902 or M 1913.

Here is a scarlet M1902 tunic worn by a Leicestershire private:

and now a M1913 displayed by Pte George Dodge, D Coy 1/Leicestershire

The main differences between the two models are the shoulder boards, (only piped for the first model) and buttons disposition on the back. The white parments (shoulder boards, piping, cuffs) indicate an infantry of the line regiment. You could find yellow for scottish regiments, blue for the Guards, etc...

More to follow

Valery

[VALERY]

Now few views from my Leicestershire M1913 tunic

Hope to be helpful

Cheers

Valery

[hadfield]

Hi,

Thanks to you both of those replies. From the pictures posted by Valery I would say that the tunic in question is definitely a M1913 pattern tunic. It is identical in everyway to the Leicestershire M1913 pattern, even down to the position of the label. I can even make out 'Infantry White' on what remains of the label! Again many thanks for that, but does anyone know how long the M1913 tunic was in production for?

Regs

Bernie

[Graham Stewart]

Has really never gone out of service and is still worn today, mainly by bands.

[FROGSMILE]

Has really never gone out of service and is still worn today, mainly by bands.

Yes, spot on Graham, still the pattern for the very few line infantry (non Rifles) Bands that still exist. Interestingly though I don't think there are any who wear white facings now.

[FROGSMILE]

Now few views from my Leicestershire M1913 tunic

Hope to be helpful

Cheers

Valery

JAMES SMITH AND CO: THE UNFORGETTABLE DAY WHEN HUNDREDS OF DERBY CLOTHING FACTORY WORKERS LOST THEIR JOBS

DAVID Speed (above) will never forget the day 20 years ago when 300 people, who worked for his company, were told it was to close down.

"It was, quite simply, the worst thing that ever happened in my working life," he said. "I understood how they felt and the worries and hardship they feared. It was just a terrible time."

The announcement that James Smith & Co (Derby) Ltd, manufacturer of clothing and uniforms which were sold all over the world, was to close its Drewry Lane headquarters was a bombshell to both the workers and Derbypeople.

Three hundred families faced a bleak future and the Evening Telegraph carried photographs of stunned workers leaving the factory after the announcement.

One union worker said everyone had been in tears and too stunned to take in the news properly. "We all feel as if there's been a death in the family," she added.

For David Speed, the factory's former managing director and a director of the group which owned Smith's, it was the day he would most like to forget.

"Of course I knew it had been coming. There had been lots of discussions but it didn't make it any easier when it did arrive," he said.

Ever since 1830 when a journeyman tailor called James Smith first decided to put down roots and set up his own business premises in Derby, the company had kept busy, steadily growing as the demand for its clothing increased.

The arrival of the railways in the town in 1839 sealed its success, for it brought a huge influx of people looking for jobs, and Smith's soon got an order to make uniforms for the new staff of theMidland Railway Company.

In those early days, the orders were so small they were delivered to Derby Station by handcart but, as the company prospered, ponies and carts came into use and eventually a workshop was set up in Siddals Road, close to the station.

Rapid expansion followed and the company moved to new premises in Drewry Lane, Derby, in 1856, where it remained in use until the closure in 1987.

In the early days, demand for uniforms poured in with orders from the Armed Forces, bus drivers and conductors, gas and electricity meter readers and postmen.

An important, even historic, moment in the company's life came in 1866 when workmen began leaving the company because they disagreed with the introduction of female labour.

It was to be the start of a new chapter at the factory as, from then on, women played an ever-increasing role in the business, eventually forming more than 90 per cent of the work force.

The war, build-up of public transport and expansion of police forces all helped contribute to Smith's success. During the war years, nearly a million garments were produced mainly for the Armed Services and there were always jobs available for Derby people willing to work there.

In 1966, when David Speed joined the company, he found it an exciting challenge and, two years later, a merger with J Compton and Sons and Webb brought together 16 factories and a total workforce of 4,500 in the UK.

In 1978, the company was bought out by Vantana and then came the 1980s, when much manufacturing in Britain began to wane.

Said David Speed: "By 1982, the 16 factories had gone down to seven, there was cheap competition from abroad, the Buy British campaign was forgotten, the Beeching axe had fallen on British Rail and the cutbacks came with a knock-on effect on our business."

Coupled with a gradual change in the British way of life – people enjoying a higher standard of living, more leisure time and the workplace becoming less formal – demands for uniforms dropped dramatically.

There was an upturn when new markets opened with career wear being worn by bank and building society employees but, by this time, Smith's factory needed updating, its staff were ageing and finding younger recruits was almost impossible.

"People just didn't want to be machinists," said David Speed. "The factory was too large, we needed modern facilities and the whole thing became uneconomic. The decision to close was devastating. I personally didn't make that decision but I was still affected by it.

"The problem was that, at the time, we couldn't explain all the problems publicly.

"I was very sorry to see it go. Some people did manage to get jobs but it was an ageing workforce and so that caused difficulties. It was just an awful time."

Smith's owners went on to make career apparel for offices at premises near Ascot Drive, which is still in existence under new owners.

[Graham Stewart]

Those who lived through the 1980's, won't foget them a hurry. Left the R.N. in 1981 and didn't get a full time job until 1984 - 3yrs of on and off the dole. Still managed to buy a house for £9,750, with an interest rate of 17.5%. Saturday's was our treat with fish & chips for dinner. If people think things are bad now, then they should have been 27yrs old and newly married then.

[Lachlan]

Sorry if I missed a post mentioning this, but I believe the first photo is the 1881 tunic with jam-pot cuffs, which replaced previous pointed patterns with piped trefoil decoration. Jam-pot cuffs were made without points etc and were a horizontal unpiped cuff. They were introduced at the time of the Childers reforms creating the new country regiments and which sought to impose white facings on English and Welsh county regiments, green on Irish regiments and yellow on Scottish regiments. Having said that, the Scottish regiments didn't adopt that pattern of cuff, though yellow was adopted. However, traditionalists battled to keep traditional facings for their regiments, particularly Royal regiments.