More ID help, please

[khoelting]

Hello. I received such a great response yesterday about the identification of my great-great uncle that I thought I'd post a few more photos for help. Based on the photo I submitted yesterday, I was told that my uncle was in the 16th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry. I believe the following is also of photo of the same man. Can you tell me if the uniform is also from the 16th battalion?

Also, in the following photo, I believe my Uncle to be on the bottom row, first on left. Is this from the 16th battalion, HLI, also? What might those stick-like looking things be that some are holding? Also, they all seem to be having a really fun time. I especially like the fellow in the front with the bottle...maybe the war was over by then?

Thank you so much for any help you can provide. I certainly appreciate it!

[barrieduncan]

I think the capbadge in the top image looks too large for HLI - looks more like KOSB to me.

[FROGSMILE]

Hello. I received such a great response yesterday about the identification of my great-great uncle that I thought I'd post a few more photos for help. Based on the photo I submitted yesterday, I was told that my uncle was in the 16th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry. I believe the following is also of photo of the same man. Can you tell me if the uniform is also from the 16th battalion?

Also, in the following photo, I believe my Uncle to be on the bottom row, first on left. Is this from the 16th battalion, HLI, also? What might those stick-like looking things be that some are holding? Also, they all seem to be having a really fun time. I especially like the fellow in the front with the bottle...maybe the war was over by then?

Thank you so much for any help you can provide. I certainly appreciate it!

These pictures are too far away to make definitive ID of the badges possible but the photo you posted yesterday is categorically HLI, as identified from both his cap badge and shoulder title and the particular battalion (16th) was identified by his cloth 'battle insignia' (adopted largely in 1917-18) on the left upper arm.

I agree with the previous poster that the photo at top of this thread appears too large to be HLI. He also has a chequered glengarry whereas the HLI glengarry was plain dark green coloured. He might perhaps have been in a different unit before joining HLI.

The lower picture seems to be a group photo of HLI men in the same dress as your previous thread on this subject.

Shoulder title.

[headgardener]

Agreed with Barrieduncan, it's KOSB. The shape is quite distinctive.

It was very common for men to be shifted from one regiment to another according to needs.

[khoelting]

Thanks for the information. These are photos I found among my great-uncle's things. Now I'm thinking that perhaps the man in the picture (with his mother I assume), may be some friend or other family member. The photo I posted yesterday, as well as the group photo in this post, is definately my uncle, (John McCaffrey) . I will confine my research to him being a member of the 16th battalion of the HLI. Thanks again for everything.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for the information. These are photos I found among my great-uncle's things. Now I'm thinking that perhaps the man in the picture (with his mother I assume), may be some friend or other family member. The photo I posted yesterday, as well as the group photo in this post, is definately my uncle, (John McCaffrey) . I will confine my research to him being a member of the 16th battalion of the HLI. Thanks again for everything.

Unless he had a twin brother the facial resemblance with your original photo is so stark that I think it is the same man. I believe he must have served in the KOSB before joining the 16th HLI.

[khoelting]

Oh, that's very interesting. I didn't realize that men could or would have been transferred around. Well, I guess I'll keep the option open that my uncle may have been moved to a different unit. I'll keep researching. It's such a shame that these old family photos weren't marked or identified in any way.

[FROGSMILE]

Oh, that's very interesting. I didn't realize that men could or would have been transferred around. Well, I guess I'll keep the option open that my uncle may have been moved to a different unit. I'll keep researching. It's such a shame that these old family photos weren't marked or identified in any way.

Here's a man in similar uniform. It was quite common for men to be transferred (often unwillingly) to a battalion that had taken a lot of casualties and was desperate for reinforcements (drafts of replacements). This was often the case if a man had been wounded and was returning to France after a period of healing and recuperation.

Notice that the tartan patch used by the two regiments is the same (McKenzie) but that the patch for the KOSB has the over sett in a diagonal cross.

[headgardener]

Oh, that's very interesting. I didn't realize that men could or would have been transferred around.

I did make this point in my earlier post.

A quick check of the medal card index at the National Archives tells me that there are 11 men with your man's name listed as serving with the HLI, several of them served with more than one regiment, none of them with the KOSB. So I'd suggest that this is the same man as on the other thread, that he did his training in the KOSB, and that at the time he finished his training the HLI had a particular need for reinforcements, and so that's where he and at least some of his comrades were posted.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for the information. These are photos I found among my great-uncle's things. Now I'm thinking that perhaps the man in the picture (with his mother I assume), may be some friend or other family member. The photo I posted yesterday, as well as the group photo in this post, is definately my uncle, (John McCaffrey) . I will confine my research to him being a member of the 16th battalion of the HLI. Thanks again for everything.

Did you get this link about the 16th Battalion that I posted before?: http://www.glesga.uk...lk/forces5a.htm

This is how the HLI OR's glengarry looked. The patch behind it is not tartan, but a deliberately frayed black rosette.

[JOHN BALL]

I agree with frogsmile,I think around the the nose and mouth is a dead giveaway. Pity both photo's are not side by side for comparison.

oldloyal.

[khoelting]

Thanks for the information. Now that I know men were moved around I do believe the pictures are all of my uncle. Thanks also, for all the links. They are so helpful in my stumbling attempts in research. Not to confuse matters, but I have one more photo that was stored with the rest. He resembles the others, but I don't know about the women in the photo. The uniform looks similar. Again, many thanks for all your help. I will spend the weekend reading and learning all I can!!

[wainfleet]

This man is in the Scottish Horse, without any doubt. They were the only regiment to wear this pattern of tunic with cuff buttons.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for the information. Now that I know men were moved around I do believe the pictures are all of my uncle. Thanks also, for all the links. They are so helpful in my stumbling attempts in research. Not to confuse matters, but I have one more photo that was stored with the rest. He resembles the others, but I don't know about the women in the photo. The uniform looks similar. Again, many thanks for all your help. I will spend the weekend reading and learning all I can!!

As stated he is Scottish Horse, a yeomanry regiment. The Yeomanry were the cavalry of the Territorial Force (the equivalent of the US National Guard). Here is the badge and a photo of a group of Scottish Horse, contemporaneous with your photo. The lady top right in your pictures looks like the mother in the earlier picture in this thread.

Formation and the Boer War 1900-1902

The Scottish Horse were raised for the South African War in Johannesburg, Cape Town and Pietermartizburg and expanded to two regiments.

The 1st and 2nd Scottish Horse were formed from Australian volunteers plus drafts from Scotland and South Africa. In 1902 both regiments were disbanded at Edinburgh Castle, after repatriating Australians and discharging South Africans.

Later in 1902 The Scottish Horse were reconstituted as two regiments by the Duke of Atholl, both claiming descent from the original Scottish Horse:

Great War 1914-1918

The First Scottish Horse Brigade

The 1st and 2nd Scottish Horse were expanded with the creation of the 3rd Regiment in August 1914 and the Scottish Horse Brigade was then formed with these three Regiments in September 1914.

By January 1915 the Scottish Horse Brigade was attached to the 50th Division, on coastal defence duties in the UK.

Gallipoli and Egypt

By August 1915 the regiment was ready for foreign service and took part in dismounted landings at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli on 2 September 1915, attached to 2nd Mounted Division.

December 1915 saw the 1st,2nd and 3rd Regiments evacuated from Gallipoli and moved to Egypt. Due to heavy casualties the Scottish Horse Brigade was absorbed into 1st Dismounted Brigade on Suez Canal defences in Feb 1916.

Macedonia

On 29 September 1916 the 1st and 2nd Regiments formed an infantry battalion. Just over two weeks later, on 15 October 1916, it became known as 13th (Scottish Horse Yeomanry) Battalion, the Black Watch. The 3rd Regiment was formed into the 26th Squadron, the Machine Gun Corps and continued to serve in Egypt before being re-titled as a company and posted to the Lovat's Scouts Battalion of the Cameron Highlanders.

The 13th (Scottish Horse Yeomanry) Battalion of The Black Watch were sent to fight in Salonika as part of the 81st Brigade in 27th Divison. It was during this time that the water colour titled "Sport In War" was painted showing the Officers of the 13th Regiment hunting in Macedonia just after returning from a raid on Hungarian Lines.

Western Front

With victory looming on the Macedonia front the Regiment was transferred to 149th Brigade, 50th Division in the Western Front in June 1918. They remained on this front until the end of the war.

[FROGSMILE]

1st Scottish Horse

Headquartered at Dunkeld with the squadrons being headquartered as follows:

A Sqn: Blair Atholl (with drill stations at Ballinluig, Pitlochry, Kirkmichael and Kinloch Rannoch)

B Sqn: Dunkeld (Murthly, Bankfoot, Dupplin, Perth, Cluny and Aberfeldy)

C Sqn: Coupar Angus (Blairgowrie, Alyth and Invergowrie)

D Sqn: Dunblane (Crieff, Comrie, Lochearnhead, Muthull, Dunning and Methven).

1/1st Scottish Horse Yeomanry

This is the original, 'first line' regiment

August 1914 : moved to Scone after mobilising. Attached for short periods to Highland and West Riding Divisions.

By November 1914 : in Northumberland and under command of 1/1st Scottish Horse Mounted Brigade.

From January 1915 : brigade attached to 2nd Northumberland Division for work on coastal defences.

17 August 1915 : dismounted and sailed on "Transylvania" from Devonport. Went via Malta and re-equipped as infantry for service at Gallipoli.

2 September 1915 : landed at Suvla Bay, where brigade came under orders of 2nd Mounted Division.

28 December 1915: evacuated from Gallipoli and moved to Egypt.

February 1916 : brigade absorbed into 1st Dismounted Brigade, which was under orders of 52nd (Lowland) Division on Suez Canal defences..

1 October 1916 : became 13th (Scottish Horse Yeomanry) Battalion of the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch).

2nd Scottish Horse

Headquartered at Aberdeen with the squadrons being headquartered as follows:

E Sqn: Elgin (with drill stations at Pluscarden, Craigellachtie, Cullen, Dallas, Dufftown, Forres, Keith and Archiestown)

F Sqn: Kintore (Peterhead, Fraserburgh, Ellon, Huntly, Insch, Inverurie, Monymusk, Cluny, Alford, Turiff, Fyvie, Rothie-Norman, Maud, Mintlaw, Newmachar and Bucksburn)

G Sqn: Aberdeen (Torphins, Aboyne, Tarland, Ballater and Braemar)

H Sqn: Connell (Kilchrenan, Appin, Easdale, Ardrishiag, Taynuilt, Calgary, Tiree, Craigbure, Cambeltown, Bunessan, Torloisk, Port Ellen, Port Charlotte, Bowmore and Bridgend).

3rd Scottish Horse

Did not exist before the war.

1/3rd Scottish Horse Yeomanry

Formed in August 1914 and moved to join 1/1st Scottish Horse, then in Northumberland.

Service same as 1/1st until October 1916 : converted into 26th (Scottish Horse) Squadron, Machine Gun Corps (Cavalry); also provided a company to the Lovat's Scouts which was then forming the 10th Cameron Highlanders.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi All,

As a correction, KOSB wore Leslie tartan.

I hope this is of use.

Aye,

Tom McC

[FROGSMILE]

Hi All

As a correction, KOSB wore Leslie tartan.

I hope this is of use.

Aye,

Tom McC

Yes Tom, mea culpa

[khoelting]

I want to express my thanks to all of you who helped in identifying my great-uncle's uniform. I have done some searching and now believe I have been able to find his medal record. Since you all were able to tell me that my Uncle was wearing the uniforms of both the Highland Light Infantry and the King's Own Scottish borderers, I was able to find a record with his name and notations of HLI, and KOSB with 2 different regimental numbers. There was an asterisk by the HLI entry and also one by the medal listing, so I'm assuming that the medals where earned while he was in the HLI, not the KOSB...but that's just my guess. (I tried to attach the record that I found, but the file type was not supported).

I really think that this is my Uncle's record. Now, I will have to try to research exactly what he might have done in these regiments. I would have never been able to find this without all of your help. I can't thank you all enough and am really amazed that a community like this forum exists and you are all so helpful to a stranger. I am leaving a donation to help support this forum and hope you can continue helping others like me for many, many more years. Thanks again!!

Karen Hoelting