Unknown Uniform

[sarahwalker]

I am trying to identify the uniform in the photo ofWilliam Seaton - he was born in Jan 1889 in Pancras, London and died in January1954 in Feltham in Middlesex.

I have searched or rather trawled through all themilitary records in Find My Past and Ancestry - I have emailed the Imperial WarMuseum all to no avail. I am unable to find any military records and amcompletely stuck with the uniform.

I am unable to find him in the 1911 census and I have trawled through the wholecountry, just in case.

He was born in Pancras in Jan 1889, in 1891 census he was living in Shoreditch- Gopsall Street with his parents and siblings and in 1901 he was living in IvyStreet, next door to his father who was widowed by that time. I know that myWilliam married Frances Lee in 1916 and therefore is unlikely to have been theWilliam in the 1911 census married to Rachel (Kent I believe was her maidenname - married in 1909).

Thank you

Sarah

[Rob B]

I would say he is from the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, pre 1900.

Rob

[centurion]

I think he's 'dressed up' in what is largely a Victorian period red coated uniform but with some later bits (for example the haversack). Strangely enough the thing he is kneeling beside resembles a 19th Century Sepoy's 'shako' (made by wrapping turban cloth around a metal frame and finishing off with a knot at the top.) His gun appears of a similar vintage. Possibly a photographer's props?

[CROONAERT]

Strangely enough the thing he is kneeling beside resembles a 19th Century Sepoy's 'shako' (made by wrapping turban cloth around a metal frame and finishing off with a knot at the top.)

Its a fusilier's Busby.

Dave

[tocemma]

Strangely enough the thing he is kneeling beside resembles a 19th Century Sepoy's 'shako' (made by wrapping turban cloth around a metal frame and finishing off with a knot at the top.)

Eh?? Looks like a ORs Fusilier busby (actually racoon fur I believe) to me... and in keeping with the rest of his uniform.

[Graham Stewart]

I'm 100% certain he's Royal Fusiliers. Blowing up the shoulder strap reveals what appears to be a coloured worsted grenade and below that coloured worsted lettering, which I believe says R.F.. Now as to which battalion is the major question, because I'm also certain he's not a Volunteer as the uniform doesn't have the distinctive Austrian knot on the cuff. What is also unusual is the fact that the title and grenade on the shoulder strap are in coloured cotton, when in all the cases I've seen - regulars wearing this pattern uniform have their titles in white worsted cotton. However the scarlet jacket is of a regular infantry pattern and so this leaves me to believe that it may be a "Militia" Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers and hopefully our Royal Fusiliers researchers may be able to assist with this one.

[Graham Stewart]

Its a fusilier's Busby.

Dave

Busbies = R.H.A.; Hussars(including some Yeomanry) & R.E.

Bearskins = Guards; Fusiliers officers; H.A.C.(?)

Fur Cap = Fusiliers

Sealskin cap = Rifles & some Rifle Volunteers

Astrakan cap = Officers Rifles

[Michael Johnson]

It's not a Regulars tunic, as it appears to have pockets. The use of puttees also would not be sanctioned in dress uniform. I'm leaning towards London Regiment, possibly the 4th. Since he seems to have spent his life in London, that makes sense.

[FROGSMILE]

I dont think London Regiment as they were Volunteers and would have worn the Austrian Knot as Graham mentioned. The jacket/frock appears to be an unusual variant with looped cartridge pockets stitched on each side of the chest, which was worn by Regulars, specifically I believe in the latter, concluding part of the Anglo Sudan Campaign. He is definitely Royal Fusiliers and could well be in the Militia, or SR battalion. He is also wearing the full Slade Wallace pattern buff leather equipment that was replaced afre the 2nd Boer War by the 1903 pattern Mounted Infantry Bandolier Equipment. The Militia/SR Battalions were the 5th and 6th, both of which were embodied between 1900 and 1908 and then again in 1914 until 1919. In each case they were at Hounslow.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Sarah

The 3rd Volunteer Battalion, The Royal Fusilers had its HQ in St. Pancras with the 4th. Battalion HQ being at Shoreditch.

Regards

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

Sarah

The 3rd Volunteer Battalion, The Royal Fusilers had its HQ in St. Pancras with the 4th. Battalion HQ being at Shoreditch.

Regards

Dave

The 3rd and 4th Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers were Regulars and not based in London.

The only "Volunteer" Battalions associated with the Royal Fusiliers after 1908 were in the London Regiment:

• 3rd City of London Battalion, County of London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) (Territorial Force). HQ 21 Edward St.NW1 from 1908 until 1913 when it moved to 207-09 Harrow Road W2 Paddington.

• 4th City of London Battalion, County of London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) (Territorial Force). HQ 112 Shaftsbury Street London N.

[wainfleet]

1880s tunic, 1888 patt. equipment with 1882 patt. pouches, Boer War period haversack, trousers that look khaki worn with puttees and a man born in 1889? It all seems to add up to a 1914 photo, when there wasn't enough modern uniform and kit to go round and recruits had to make do with a mishmash of old and new. The only odd thing is the busby [edit: sorry, fur cap!], which seems distinctly OTT for emergency headwear, but maybe that's all they had left in the stores!

[ATNOMIS]

1880s tunic, 1888 patt. equipment with 1882 patt. pouches, Boer War period haversack, trousers that look khaki worn with puttees and a man born in 1889? It all seems to add up to a 1914 photo, when there wasn't enough modern uniform and kit to go round and recruits had to make do with a mishmash of old and new. The only odd thing is the busby [edit: sorry, fur cap!], which seems distinctly OTT for emergency headwear, but maybe that's all they had left in the stores!

Could he have his Dad's kit on with his own issue trousers boots and puttees. Young recruit ( we call them Trainee's now how PC) getting inspiration from his forefathers?

Just a thought.

Simon

[Michael Johnson]

The rifle is also distinctly odd. The sling appears to run almost to the muzzle, which doesn't mesh with an SMLE unless your sling is on the piling-swivel.

[FROGSMILE]

1880s tunic, 1888 patt. equipment with 1882 patt. pouches, Boer War period haversack, trousers that look khaki worn with puttees and a man born in 1889? It all seems to add up to a 1914 photo, when there wasn't enough modern uniform and kit to go round and recruits had to make do with a mishmash of old and new. The only odd thing is the busby [edit: sorry, fur cap!], which seems distinctly OTT for emergency headwear, but maybe that's all they had left in the stores!

I am wondering if it is a photo where he has been dressed up in period uniform for some kind of regimental display, perhaps even for recruiting. Although odds and ends of obsolescent equipment were used, especially with Kitchener Blue, I have never seen such a full set of 1880s-90s equipment in use in WW1 and, as you say, the fusilier fur cap is incongruous. It seems significant (not yet trained?) that he is handling the rifle and bayonet in a very odd manner by the stock only.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

The 3rd and 4th Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers were Regulars and not based in London

Frogturn

I would not disagree with that however the Battalion names I quoted are pre-1908 Volunteer designations of the TF Battalions you quoted. I had clearly stated volunteer in my post.

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

Frogturn

I would not disagree with that however the Battalion names I quoted are pre-1908 Volunteer designations of the TF Battalions you quoted. I had clearly stated volunteer in my post.

Dave

Yes Dave, understood. We are looking from different angles perhaps. I am focussing on the fact that he is not wearing a VB tunic but a Regular/Militia one. Given his date of birth he is either in VB or Regular/Militia. Given his dress I am inclined to agree with Graham that he is not a 'Volunteer', which as well as Austrian Knots would have been indicated with a V on his shoulder straps.

[Michael Johnson]

Sarah

The 3rd Volunteer Battalion, The Royal Fusilers had its HQ in St. Pancras with the 4th. Battalion HQ being at Shoreditch.

Regards

Dave

William married in 1916 in Shoreditch.

[4thGordons]

The rifle is also distinctly odd. The sling appears to run almost to the muzzle, which doesn't mesh with an SMLE unless your sling is on the piling-swivel.

Iam pretty sure it is not an SMLE - the barrel is exposed for the front section (no front handguard) Therefore it could be a MLE or MLM or a Martini-Henry given the time period. Actually I don't think the sling runs to the muzzle I think that is a result of the foreshortening effect - I think it runs to the band well behind the muzzle. There actually was an earlier style of slinging that persisted for a good while where the sline was run from a swivel point forward of the trigger to the muzzle. Some units persisted in using this and of course up until the MkIII* variant of the SMLE there was a sling swivel point provided forward of the magazine that would allow this.

It is very hard to tell looking at the bayonet because of the camera angle but my guess would be this is a P1888 bayonet not a blade bayonet of a martini-henry (the bayonet scabbard on the photo is also shorter like the p1888) so I think it is probably a Magazine Lee-Metford or Magazine Lee-Enfield.

Chris

[Graham Stewart]

1880s tunic, 1888 patt. equipment with 1882 patt. pouches, Boer War period haversack, trousers that look khaki worn with puttees and a man born in 1889? It all seems to add up to a 1914 photo, when there wasn't enough modern uniform and kit to go round and recruits had to make do with a mishmash of old and new. The only odd thing is the busby [edit: sorry, fur cap!], which seems distinctly OTT for emergency headwear, but maybe that's all they had left in the stores!

Mixed dress for periods of emergency wasn't unusual and I have saeen photo's of the General Strike in 1920 where troops are wearing it, when on the march to selected areas.

My feeling is this a member of the R.F. Militia, who has been embodied for service and as such is wearing mixed dress. Militia units were embodied and served overseas to replace regular units, who in turn were posted to South Africa, whereas the Volunteers went onto form Volunteer Service Company's for service with regular battalions in S.A.. The term of service was for one year on Discharge from their V.B., and on completion of service, re-enlisted back into the V.B.. The Militia on the otherhand were I believe embodied for the full term.

I'm unfamiliar with the R.F., but know certain regiments went onto form 3rd & 4th regular battalions, which generally served at home until 1902/03. Nor do I know how many Militia battalions of the R.F. there were, but their Bn numbering would have been adjusted on the formation of any other regular battalions.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

The RF had three Militia Battalions:

The Westminster Militia became 3rd RF in 1881 and redesignated 5th in 1898.

The Royal Middlesex Militia became 5th RF in 1881, redesignated 7th in 1898 and 6th in 1921.

The Royal London Militia became 4th RF in 1881 redesignated 6th in 1898 and 7th in 1921.

Source - Westlake

[Graham Stewart]

The RF had three Militia Battalions:

The Westminster Militia became 3rd RF in 1881 and redesignated 5th in 1898.

The Royal Middlesex Militia became 5th RF in 1881, redesignated 7th in 1898 and 6th in 1921.

The Royal London Militia became 4th RF in 1881 redesignated 6th in 1898 and 7th in 1921.

Source - Westlake

Any idea what the facing colour of their uniforms were? This would be important, because Militia battalions in 1881 seemed to have retained their facing colours for a period of time. If my memory is correct the 3rd(Militia)Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers had buff facings and were nicknamed the "Northumberland Buffs".