trajan Posted 10 June , 2011 Share Posted 10 June , 2011 Hi everyone, Carter's seminal book on Ersatz Bayonets is not available anywhere where I live. Which means I have to do my identification of what I see for sale and have collected from this French website: Les Ersazt Allemandes = http://www.patiorlander.toile-libre.org/Ersatz/index.php?page=4http. That site does not provide any description so can anyone explain what the difference is between a EB 49 and an EB 50? I have one or the other but which? I also have an EB 47 but without a quillion - is that unusual? I should add that although both were bought locally they have not been 'Turked'. Thanks in advance for all and any help. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 June , 2011 Share Posted 10 June , 2011 Here is another LINK which provides some more background on the Ersatz. Your best bet may be to buy Otto's CD on the Turkish bayonets.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2011 Here is another LINK which provides some more background on the Ersatz. Your best bet may be to buy Otto's CD on the Turkish bayonets.? Cheers, S>S Thanks again! I had heard about Otto's Turkish bayonets CD - but does it also cover the German Ersatz? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 11 June , 2011 Share Posted 11 June , 2011 Hello. I find that linked site a bit hard to use. I think the best idea is to post some pictures and I'm sure someone will be able to help identify it. I am not an expert but do have the following books- 'The Bayonet Book'-Watts and White, 'German Ersatz Bayonets 1'- Carter and 'World Bayonets 1800 to the Present'-Carter. I would be happy to try and find information if no one on the forum can help. You might be able to find a coppy of the last book mentioned on line. My copy is dated 1996, ISBN 1-85409-344-4. Regards, Paul. PS- EB50 looks to be a version of EB49 with an unfullered blade and is 'much rarer'. No mention of an EB47 without quillon. (alterations to post due to mis identification) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2011 Hello. I find that linked site a bit hard to use. I think the best idea is to post some pictures and I'm sure someone will be able to help identify it. I am not an expert but do have the following books- 'The Bayonet Book'-Watts and White, 'German Ersatz Bayonets 1'- Carter and 'World Bayonets 1800 to the Present'-Carter. I would be happy to try and find information if no one on the forum can help. You might be able to find a coppy of the last book mentioned on line. My copy is dated 1996, ISBN 1-85409-344-4. Regards, Paul. PS- EB50 looks to be a version of EB49 with an unfullered blade and is 'much rarer'. No mention of an EB47 without quillon. (alterations to post due to mis identification) THANK YOU! The web-sites helped a little. Our old camera is 'bozuk' = broken, so I can't do photos as yet. I'll check the 'World Bayonets 1800 to the Present'-Carter on line though - and at some stage order the Otto CD that S>S suggested. The French site I was using just has drawings... If fullering is the difference then I have a EB 49. We'll see! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 12 June , 2011 Share Posted 12 June , 2011 In that book it may be number 117. Valued in 1996 at £45 for the usual steel hilt version. A brass hilt version was listed as £125. Regards, Paul. PS Let me know if you need measurements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2011 In that book it may be number 117. Valued in 1996 at £45 for the usual steel hilt version. A brass hilt version was listed as £125. Regards, Paul. PS Let me know if you need measurements. This is a steel hilt with only one rivet visible on one side of the grip and nine diagonal 'cut-marks' each side as on 'butcher blade' bayonet wooden grips. There is a 'fraktur' mark but I have not read it yet. The tip of the blade is missing but the survivng blade length is 29.6 cm so I guess about 30.5 to 31 cm originally. Guess it is time to buy a new camera and not a new bayonet - but any comments gratefully received! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 12 June , 2011 Share Posted 12 June , 2011 Overall length 425mm, Blade length 305mm, Blade width 26mm, Blade thickness 5mm, Fuller length 199mm, Fuller width 9mm (Blade lengths vary between 305mm and 315mm. Should have 3 flush ground rivets in line. Widths of crossguard can vary.) I also have a book published in 2000- German Sidearms and Bayonets 1740-1944 by Klaus Lubbe, a bayonet that 'might' be yours type is 357 valued at £80-£120. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 June , 2011 Overall length 425mm, Blade length 305mm, Blade width 26mm, Blade thickness 5mm, Fuller length 199mm, Fuller width 9mm (Blade lengths vary between 305mm and 315mm. Should have 3 flush ground rivets in line. Widths of crossguard can vary.) I also have a book published in 2000- German Sidearms and Bayonets 1740-1944 by Klaus Lubbe, a bayonet that 'might' be yours type is 357 valued at £80-£120. Thanks for this and the previous one Wardog. When viewed under alered light I saw that my possible EB 50 does have three flush rivets in line. And the measurements basically match - except mine lacks the tip and the fullers are 195 and 205 mm long. So, I have an EB 50! Thanks again, Trajan PS: When next in the UK I will try for the books you mention, No point ordering on line as local customs sometimes slap a 50 euro tax on books posted to foreign residents in Turkey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 13 June , 2011 Share Posted 13 June , 2011 While the experts are gathered: What do you make of the ID of these ("Turked")ersatz bayonets? I have never really decided. This one I know but I thought Trajan might be interested in seeing it. These are actually pretty common, it would be interesting to know how many were converted. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 June , 2011 Ooooh.... I am SO jealous! MUCH better nick than anything I see here or have collected here! Remember I have no books so I am just guessing on my limited experience (I only really started collecting this year!),,, But no harm in sticking my neck out?! Isn't the first one a real ersatz but 'turked' with a Turkish scabbard? The second one also has a Turkish scabbard and is possibly a Turkish ersatz as it is not shortened? The third looks to me Turkish - a 1903? - again with a Turkish scabbard... At some point in the near future I expect I might be stripped a rank when the correct answers are posted... But if nothing else that will show yet one more time the value of GWF to us all! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 13 June , 2011 Share Posted 13 June , 2011 Actually the third one is a British 1907 Pattern, blade shortened and crosspiece replaced so it mounts on the Turkish produced/modified version of the 1898(03) Mauser. This one is dated 1915, and as you can see is without the clearance hole in the pommel. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 June , 2011 Actually the third one is a British 1907 Pattern, blade shortened and crosspiece replaced so it mounts on the Turkish produced/modified version of the 1898(03) Mauser. This one is dated 1915, and as you can see is without the clearance hole in the pommel. Chris Ouch... Slapped wrist deserved there,,, Living in a small flat my 1907's - like most of my bayonets - are packed away... According to my wife small kids and bayonets on walls don't mix so only two out at any one time... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 13 June , 2011 Share Posted 13 June , 2011 Trajan, Just to confirm,EB49=Fuller EB50=unfullerd. Chris, no expert but I'll check the books if I happen to have any you don't. (which I doubt! )First one EB46? EB10 for the second one? Only one of these I've had was an EB53 which I sold on in the mid 1990's when I found out it was worth a bit. Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2011 Trajan, Just to confirm,EB49=Fuller EB50=unfullerd Thanks again - oh for the relevant books owing to the lack of which I cannot say just how grateful I am for helpful comments on this forum! Mind you I do wonder if anyone has done any serious academic research on the German ersatz bayonets? In the sense that the need for the emergency production of 'aufhilfs gewehre' seems to show just how badly organised the German war effort was in 1915, when they had to produce these things owing to a lack of production capacity to make enough of the approved regulation ones, such as the 'Butcher blade'. I also wonder why it was that German high command never seemed to have learnt that in the trenches the shorter the bayonet the more useful it was in action, as opposed to the long-bladed 'butcher blade'. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 June , 2011 Share Posted 14 June , 2011 I also wonder why it was that German high command never seemed to have learnt that in the trenches the shorter the bayonet the more useful it was in action, as opposed to the long-bladed 'butcher blade'. Trajan Well the British maintained the 17" P1907/P13, The French the huge epee, The Russians the Nagant bayonet, The United States the long M1917 and M1908.... so they weren't exactly alone! And the Germans did HAVE shorter patterns, unlike the others (OK early on the British had P1903s and P1888s but these were removed from front line service) Perhaps it was as much to do with psychology as practicality? Worth noting that all of the above powers (with the exception of the Soviet Union) shortened or introduced shorter patterns in the inter-war period, including the UK who went from the impressive P1907 to a glorified 9" nail. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 15 June , 2011 Perhaps it was as much to do with psychology as practicality? I do remember seeing a reference somehere to an academic paper titled something like 'They don't like it up 'em Sir!' (after Corporal Jone's (in)famous reitereated claim in 'Dad's Army') - and I think it made that same point. That apart you and other bayonet people might be somewhat relieved to hear that I now have access (thanks to my friendly university librarian!) to the complete edition of Kiesling's 'Bayonets of the World'! Mashallah!, as my students would say, as that will perhaps answer numerous more questions I might have on bayonet topics - but don't start celebrating too soon: I will be back as I get more into the learning curve! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppertales Posted 20 June , 2011 Share Posted 20 June , 2011 I have one like the bottom picture. It fits perfectly on my Remington Mosin Nagant M91 that had a lug welded to the stock nose cap. I believe the Austrians did it.....chris3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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