CWGC Headstones

[Rob Chester]

Does anybody know what the qualification for a CWGC Headstone? I was suprised to find that in Bingley Cemetery there is a grave with a Commonwealth War Grave headstone, to Sergeant Charles Augustus Wainwright, 5th Battalion Cameron Highlanders. Wainwright died on 18th February 1920. Wainwright had been wounded on 3rd March 1917 - with a gun shot wound to the abdomen - and was discharged from the Army a year later on the 19th March 1918. However Wainwright did not die as a result of his wounds but was murdered, along with his mother, by his father. So it seems when he died he was niether a serving soldier not a casualty of the war, the only linking factor to his war service was the fact that he was stabbed in the abdomen. So how comes he is commemorated by the CWGC? Does anybody know what criteria the CWGC followed when considering eligability for a headstone?

[Terry Denham]

CWGC does not decide who qualifies. That decision was down to MoD and its predecessors. CWGC only commemorates those approved by the military authorities.

Presumably, the army was persuaded that there was a connection between his cause of death and his service - perhaps the old wound was exacerbated by the stabbing?

[chrissparrow]

This is a subject that fascinates me! I have just run a thread on womens graves and someone pointed out a who died of flu visiting her wounded husband in France, died and was given a GWGC headstone.

I also know of some who were serving who did not get the headstone ( or did not want one?) but who are listed by the CWGC.

Chris

[Terry Denham]

Chris

Not all headstones which look like CWGC headstones are provided by CWGC and they do not necessarily mark an official war grave. A war grave headstone can easily be confused with a Non-World War pattern headstone (I think the one you mention is a NWW rather than a war grave stone).

Many war graves do not have CWGC stones in the home countries as the NoK were allowed a private stone if they so wished.

The type of headstone cannot be taken as a guarantee that a grave is an official war grave as there are quite a few copy stones provided privately rather than by CWGC as well as the very similar NWW stones provided by MoD and its predecessors for non-war grave burials.

[Terry Denham]

Chris

I have just checked the record for your lady who died in France and I presume you are talking about Florence Grover buried in Etaples.

Her grave is not a war grave but is officially classified as a Non-World War Grave in CWGC Care. So her headstone is not a 'CWGC stone' in the general sense of the term although it was, in this case, provided by them. It can get confusing!

[chrissparrow]

Thanks Terry,

I know about most of the facts that you state (although those who have not got offical headstones, but are still looked after by the CWGC I did not realise!).

The complexity of this issue still fascinates me. I would love to do a book on the subject - unusual GWGC Headstones? Even if another member is already working on it I think there would be so many and so varied that we would rarely clash!

Chris

[Rob Chester]

Thanks Terry and Chris. If it was the responsibility of the MoD, or War Office, to decide who was eligible for a headstone how did they decide and how did they know when someone had died? Did they have some sort of arrangement with the Registrar General so that they were informed when someone died & a death certificate issued, or was it left up to the next of kin to inform the war office and apply for a headstone etc? If the latter what steps did the War Office/MoD take to veryfy the information they were given.

Rob

[Terry Denham]

Rob

You have to separate the two processes.

In simple terms, the military supplied CWGC with a list of qualifying personnel for war grave status. The military decided who qualified and had nothing to do with headstones.

CWGC then erected headstones over the notified graves. As said before, headstones are not necessarily the sign of war grave status though due to the number of copies and NWW stones.

The military (and equivalent authorities in the dominions) decided who qualified by the set criteria which still apply to new cases today (See the first post in the 'Non-Commemoration' section of GWF for a fuller explanation of these). Obviously, they knew if someone died in service (though many were overlooked for various reasons) but they had to be informed by NoK etc if a qualifying death occurred after discharge - Hence, many non-coms coming from this sector still today.

[bantamforgot]

If I may re. the headstone queries , the dating of such. Recently I watched a ww1 programme regarding the death of s soldier who died as a pow in August, his headstone was dated May of that year, the time of the action in which he was wounded & taken prisoner ?

What was the precise method of dating?

Colin.

[judy7007]

I am hoping this is appropriate to ask in this thread but I am wondering why this soldier would have a bronze plaque and not a headstone. His record at NAA (p39) states that his death was attributable to War service. He is buried in Bundaberg in Qld.

Judy

[Terry Denham]

Judy

The standard CWGC headstone is not universal for war graves. In the Gallipoli area a stone block is used due to geological reasons and, in the Far East (from Europe that is!), a similar block is used with a bronze plaque like the one you depict.

In Australia, standard headstones are used sometimes and sometimes the block/plaque combination or even just a plaque. Also, non-war grave veterans are also given the same style of plaque by the Australian authorities (though these are obviously not war graves as the men/women died outside the CWGC war grave dates or do not qualify for CWGC commemoration for some other reason).

Even in the UK, the Gallipoli style block can now sometimes been seen where CWGC are replacing a private stone on certain types of grave.

The grave of Kincaid which you illustrate is an official war grave.

[Terry Denham]

Colin

The date appearing on the headstone is that given to CWGC by the military or other approving authority. Sometimes the date recorded in official records is the date reported missing etc and can be inaccurate on occasions.

I know of one case where the crew of an RAF aircraft (WW2) were all killed but the pilot is stated to have died a few days after the rest. In fact, they did all die in the same crash at the same time. However, RAF records only show the pilot as 'missing' on that day and his 'declared dead' date is a few days later. The RAF have refused to sanction a change to the date to match the events though.

[bantamforgot]

Many thanks Terry, apreciated.

Regards.

Colin.

[judy7007]

Thank you Terry, very helpful to know, especially as some in the cemetery were standard headstones and I wasn't sure why Kincaid would be different. The plaque is quite recent as the cemetery office still had his grave as unmarked on their records.

Judy

[chrissparrow]

Sometimes the CWGC admit to not knowing the actual date and record it as between two dates.

Chris

[Terry Denham]

A spread of dates of death is quite usual for obvious reasons - the actual date being unknown.

The widest span of dates in the CWGC database is 04.08.14 to 31.08.21 for WW1 - ie the full span of the war meaning that there is no recorded date or even month/year at all for the casualty.

In the original registers a two day span was often given - eg 10th-11th June 1916 etc. When the records were computerised, these were largely converted to give the date of death as the first date only.