Gewehr 98 butt disc

[rayoung74]

Wotcha gang

I recently purchased a G98 and it has a ID disc on the butt, however I have no idea what it means any links to sites with info or Information on what the marking means would be much appreciated. The butt disc markings are as follows 1.K.J R.146

Thanks in advance

Ray

[4thGordons]

Wotcha gang

I recently purchased a G98 and it has a ID disc on the butt, however I have no idea what it means any links to sites with info or Information on what the marking means would be much appreciated. The butt disc markings are as follows 1.K.J R.146

Thanks in advance

Ray

I know I am goign to screw this up but could it be: 1 Kompanie Jaeger Regiment 146?

I am not sure this is usually the form of marking though.

HERE is a reasonable listing of Imperial unit markings and reading them - no obvious candidates

This one(German Police Markings) includes several Ks

Forum Member Gewehr 98 might be your best bet for this.

I seem to recall reading this marking before - was the rifle advertised online somewhere?

Chris

[shippingsteel]

The difficulty with any of these identifications is trying to take a guess while working with insufficient information.

It helps if the markings can be put into context by 1) nailing down the era/date and 2) showing the style and format of lettering in a photo.

The marking regulations gradually changed over time and also different styles of lettering have different meanings, as in Italics etc.

The first step is always going to be looking for a date stamp on the weapon itself, which will help narrow down the possibilites.

Also any signs of modification or refurbishment, which may point to the marking on the disc pertaining to a much later period.

Cheers, S>S

[Cnock]

Hi,

should be Infanterie Regiment 146

regards,

Cnock

[rayoung74]

As requested here is a photo of the butt marker and also the marking on the top of the breech.

The photo of the breech isnt to clear but from top to bottom it has the following.

A crescent moon

Waffenfabrik

Mauser A;G.

Oberndorf A/N

1918

also just before the range slide is a small S

I'll add the other picture of the breech in the next post.

[rayoung74]

and here is the breech marking sorry for the poor photo quality.

[shippingsteel]

It is either a very great coincidence or you may have picked yourself up a rifle with quite an interesting and unusual history. Very nice find I should think.

Not the everyday run of the mill Gew 98, this one appears to have been made for the wartime export order to the Turkish allies (crescent moon stamped receiver)

Waffenfabrik Mauser Oberndorf was the only German manufacturer to supply these rifles to the Turks during 1917/18, and I believe in quite considerable numbers.

So therefore it would be unusual to see German unit markings on a butt disc from a weapon that was sent off to Turkey, that is until you check out the particular unit.!

I believe Chris and Cnock have between them already identified the unit ID as being 1. Kompagnie, Infanterie Regiment Nr.146 which is what has got me interested.

You see from what I can gather this unit was part of the second German expedition, and was sent over from Macedonia in 1918 to offer some assistance to the Turks.

Here they formed part of the Asienkorps and together with the Turks fought against the British and Australians at the Battle of Megiddo in Palestine, September 1918.

There is an interesting LINK here to that particular battle, including a detailed report and maps from the Australian War Memorial website LINK

Also a complete listing of German units that took part in the 'Asian' expeditions to be found in this good GWF THREAD .

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

this one appears to have been made for the wartime export order to the Turkish allies (crescent moon stamped receiver)

Cheers, S>S

Shipping Steel,

Does this also work for German Ersatz bayonets? What I mean by that is - if a German Ersatz bayonet has a crescent moon (but no star) on the cross guard then it was part of an export consignment to Turkey?

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

Does this also work for German Ersatz bayonets?

What I mean by that is - if a German Ersatz bayonet has a crescent moon (but no star) on the cross guard then it was part of an export consignment to Turkey?

No, I believe the German ersatz bayonets were acquired by Turkey as part of their post-war rearmament in the 1920's. See THIS link for background on Ersatz.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Hi,

should be Infanterie Regiment 146

regards,

Cnock

Agreed, but the marking disk appears to be quite clearly stamped with a J rather than a mistruck I.

so either a mistake was made in stamping (the stamps would be next to each other in the block!), a different abbreviation was applied, or the disk refers to something else entirely...

Chris

[rayoung74]

I thought myself initially that the disc may be on the wrong rifle German markings on a possibly Turkish weapon. However the thought occours to me that maybe the disc was stamped correctly as 1 K (1st Kompanie) J R 146 (Jaeger Regiment 146) , however the use of the term Jaeger is inaccurate and intended to induce a sense of E'spirit de corps like many of the British units that called themselves rifle regiments but were in fact just regiments of the line so to speak. I this possible or am I just waffling?

Thanks for all the info so far, it would appear I got a lot more than I thought. (Not that I'm complaining mind!!)

Youngie

[gew98]

I thought myself initially that the disc may be on the wrong rifle German markings on a possibly Turkish weapon. However the thought occours to me that maybe the disc was stamped correctly as 1 K (1st Kompanie) J R 146 (Jaeger Regiment 146) , however the use of the term Jaeger is inaccurate and intended to induce a sense of E'spirit de corps like many of the British units that called themselves rifle regiments but were in fact just regiments of the line so to speak. I this possible or am I just waffling?

Thanks for all the info so far, it would appear I got a lot more than I thought. (Not that I'm complaining mind!!)

Youngie

Well ; I do feel the stock is wrong for a 1918 Oberndorf as you would not find unit discs' on buttstocks on any newmade gew98's in 1918 - especially oberndorf factory production. The majority of gew98 production by oberndorf from 1916 through 1918 went to turkey. Jaeger in german military parlance is light infantry. The germans had light mounted infantry "Jaeger Regiment Zu Pferde" too.

I'm not exactly sure what the regimental is as it more or less does not follow regs , but that is not an uncommon thing to find.

Here is a 1916 Spandau with a Jaeger marked disc from my pile of gewehrs:

[shippingsteel]

Agreed, but the marking disk appears to be quite clearly stamped with a J rather than a mistruck I.

so either a mistake was made in stamping (the stamps would be next to each other in the block!), a different abbreviation was applied, or the disk refers to something else entirely...

Chris

Just to add extra confusion the Germans often used the letters J R ( the J is actually a script I ) to denote an Infanterie-Regiment unit. This often found on identity discs etc.

The regulations state the mark for the Infantry regiment should be just the block R, with the script R used for Reserve Infantry regiments, but apparently they did improvise.

The standard Jaeger unit was normally a battalion size unit as part of a full Infantry regiment, and was normally denoted with the block letter J as shown on Gew98's butt disc.

If the German via Turkey provenance theory is correct, those guys would have been a long way from home and I doubt they would have had a care for what the regulations said.

EDIT. The proper designation for the 146th Regiment was 1. Masurisches Infanterie-Regt. Nr.146 (Allenstein) XX Armee Korps, so officially not Jaeger, but who knows ...

Cheers, S>S

[trenchtrotter]

Just adding weight to the J being for Infantry. All my Pickles have JR..... and it is simply Infantry Regiment. As ststed J is script for what we have as I.

TT

[trajan]

No, I believe the German ersatz bayonets were acquired by Turkey as part of their post-war rearmament in the 1920's. See THIS link for background on Ersatz.

Cheers, S>S

Thank you for that. On closer inspection the 'crescent' on my ersatz is more a three-quarter circle than a crescent and certainly not like the crescent on my Turkish bayonets.

Apologies to all others on this forum for going off on a tangent - I am enjoying following the discussion!

Trajan

[4thGordons]

Just adding weight to the J being for Infantry. All my Pickles have JR..... and it is simply Infantry Regiment. As ststed J is script for what we have as I.

TT

All right then. Noted, and I stand corrected J = I . So does that mean the unit is identified and what remains in question is the marker original to the rifle.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

It would be interesting to check if the rifle is still in its original WW1 shape, or if it has any signs of postwar Turkish rework and refurbishment.

The particular battle that I mentioned above (involving the 146 IR) turned into a complete rout, and much weaponry was left on the battlefield.

If ever there was a golden opportunity for aspiring souvenir hunters to pick themselves up a nice 'bringback' item, it would have been this battle.

For this rifle to have remained in its 'original' condition it would need to have been a 'pickup', or otherwise would have seen much Turkish rework.

Cheers, S>S

[gew98]

I ran this past my friend Jeff Noll and he said he'd bet a beer this disc is...

"1st Kompagnie, Jnfantrie-Regiment 146. The reason is the 146 and 1 are the same font size. Usually weapon numbers are smaller.

I would'nt bet against jeff on such things.

[rayoung74]

Given that my knowledge of Gewehr rifles is very basic what are the signs of Turkish reworking on a Gewehr rifle?

Thanks in advance

Youngie

[4thGordons]

Given that my knowledge of Gewehr rifles is very basic what are the signs of Turkish reworking on a Gewehr rifle?

Thanks in advance

Youngie

Usually:

Crescent moon stamped on the receiver

EDIT: like this

Sometimes:

parts renumbered to match (in different font)

turning down bolt handle

replacing "rollercoaster" rear sight with flat

Stitched on leather sling

Other people did these things too (bolt handles and rear sights for example) but the crescent moon stamp is very common.

I suppose strictly speaking the moon indicates ownership rather than "reworking" - although it seems that the Turks worked on the rifles a lot.

Chris

[rayoung74]

Looking over the rifle I think it hasn't been reworked. The crescent moon is on the receiver (from what has been said all Gewehr's sent to Turkey were marked like this.)however :-

The rear sight is roller coaster not flat.

The font of the parts that are numbered is the same even though the part numbers do not match.

The cocking handle isn't turned down.

There is no sling stitched on or otherwise (Though it is possiblee that due to age snd poor treatment it disintegrated I suppose.)

If I have missed anything feel free to point and laugh and teh ntell me what I missed.

Thanks

Youngie

[calibre792x57.y]

I have to go with Gew 98 on this one. Generally rifles with a butt disc have walnut stocks and are dated no later than 1916 - even so it is unusual to find a war time manufactured rifle where the butt disc has a unit marking for security reasons. The honourable exception is the 164 IR which seemed to go on stamping its weapons during the war. By 1917 most, if not all, have hollow tube in place of the disc, designed to secure the rifle when packed in cases which also serves as a dismounting tool for the bolt. These usually have beech stocks. It would appear from the information given that the barrel/action have been fitted to an earlier stock. I have to ask is the stock stamped with the same number as the action and bolt? SW

[4thGordons]

Aside from the issue of the stock - where I am happy to go with GEW98's ans SW's expertise that it is probably a replacement- the fact that the numbers are mismatched on other parts (mausers, unlike enfields number almost everything - down to individual screws!) suggests that someone somewhere has has either replaced damaged (numerous?) parts or assembled a complete rifle from lots of parts (eg in a Turkish rebuilding program) or the individual rifle has been "restored" (with a nice stock and period parts) around a barrelled action that at some point had been in Turkey.

Is the rifle deactivated? I have wondered for a while if rifles are deactivated by dealers en-masse (or at least in small batches where they might be disassembled (cut/welded etc) then reassembled without particular care as to which parts go with which) - I simply do not know what the process is.

BTW my list was not meant to be comprehensive just pointing out some of the things that are frequently observed.

Chris

[rayoung74]

I've just checked the serial numbers on the butt, the receiver and the bolt and none of them match. So from what has been said would the best coclusion to draw be that the rifle was assembled from "spare parts" probably in Turkey.

It just seems like a rather strange coincidence that the unit marker belongs to a German regt that fought as allies with the Turks in Palestine in 1918 at the battle of Megiddo.

I wonder if this may be "salvage" that has had new parts to bring it back to servicability and then been preesed into service by the Turks but that still runs me back to the above coincidence.

As far as Weapons being Deactivated en mass I wouldn't like to comment as I haven't the fantest idea as to how the deactivation procedure is run and if the way it is done has changed over the years.

Youngie

[shippingsteel]

Has anyone seen an export Oberndorf that was part of the wartime Turkish supply contract that remains in its 'original' condition (so matching and not reworked).?

I wonder what style of buttstock was supplied for the Turks.? So was the stock walnut with butt disc, plain walnut only with no disc, or did they have the hollow tube.?

I would imagine that any German unit travelling through Palestine and mixing their supply trains with the Turkish materiel, would be VERY conscious of identification.

Obviously for security reasons they would want their equipment well marked to avoid any mix-ups, and so their rifles would not just 'disappear' enroute to somewhere.

So if the Turks were supplied with plain buttstocks without any disc, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Germans improvised their own marking discs in this situation.

Cheers, S>S