UnionJack Posted 5 June , 2011 Share Posted 5 June , 2011 I would like to know when the oil hole in the pommel appeared as I have a 1916 dated bayonet without a hole. Also, when did the frog stud change from oval to round? Thought this thread would be a good place for a chronological list of changes if anyone can do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 June , 2011 Share Posted 5 June , 2011 I would like to know when the oil hole in the pommel appeared as I have a 1916 dated bayonet without a hole. Also, when did the frog stud change from oval to round? Thought this thread would be a good place for a chronological list of changes if anyone can do it? I believe I have the dates of the LoCs somewhere but will need to dig them out. I don't think the round stud was a required change as such, it was an approved modification/simplification to speed production which could be adopted (or not) by manufacturers if they desired. So any date will be when the modification was approved but that would not necessarily mean all scabbards produced after then would have had round studs. Regarding the clearance hole in the pommel - what maker is your bayonet - Lithgow bayonets continued to be produced without the hole for several years after 1916. I will look for the LoC dates. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 5 June , 2011 Share Posted 5 June , 2011 Think that oil hoils were introduced around June 1916 but sure Chris will be able to find out the exact date for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 June , 2011 Share Posted 5 June , 2011 OK from my notes (taken from various sources - including Skennerton, Skennerton and Richardson, LoC etc) errors are most likely mine! LoC 14170 30/1/1908 Bayonet introduced (with quillon) LoC 14678 11/12/1908 MkII Scabbard introduced LoC 14866 12/10/1909 New (external) chape on scabbard LoC 15078 ?/1/1910 Rivetting chape ?/9/1910 Stained polished scabbard rather than shellac Pat B235 29/10/1913 Quillon removed from new production and to be removed from existing bayonets ? 4/2/1915 Blades to be sandblasted rather than polished for duration of war (revoked 1919 - blades being refinished to be polished) LoC 17623 29/9/1915 Two part (twin seam) scabbard approved 19/11/1915 Wartime Production economies approved: Inc- Squared Chape/Locket ends, Circular stud, High leather seams, leather finish. LoC 17692 ?/2?/1916 Oil hole in pommel approved (proposed in Dec 1915 cf Skennerton/Richardson)and to be retro. applied on refinished weapons. Lithgow produced bayonets first added clearance hole in 1922. There are of course all sorts of variations and inconsistencies. Apart from the final note I have not included Lithgow or Ishapore variations although these generally followed the UK. Again with the exception of the clearance hole I have not included post WWI changes or variations. Hope this helps Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnionJack Posted 5 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 June , 2011 Very interesting indeed. It would seem that almost nothing is 'wrong' for a Great War period bayonet. I had previously been told that WW1 was oval stud, round stud was 1930's but obviously not. The bayonet I have without the hole is marked with - GR, 1907, I '16, J.A.C then on reverse with the arrow, X, and twice marked - crown with TH below then E below that. I'm guessing P1907 made by J. Chapman in January 1916, passed bend test, Not sure what the 'TH' is though. So, is this unusual to have missed being drilled out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 June , 2011 Share Posted 5 June , 2011 So, is this unusual to have missed being drilled out? Yes it is relatively uncommon for a bayonet to have missed out on being drilled during a refinish/reissue but not uncommon enough to call it really "rare". (Anecdotally perhaps one in 40 or 50 that show up on eBay for example would appear to not have the clearance hole - this is just a guess really) Certainly however a 1916 (non-Lithgow) bayonet that was manufactured without the hole and managed to avoid getting one is a nice example to have. The other markings you are describing sound like inspectors' stamps to me. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnionJack Posted 5 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 June , 2011 Thanks for your help, I'm having a bayonet clear out and deciding what to keep and what to pass on. I think this is one to keep. Interesting all this talk of bayonets on eBay, surely they can't be listed on UK eBay? And I suppose a UK buyer can't buy one from the US eBay site? Not sure how/where is the best place to sell mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 5 June , 2011 Share Posted 5 June , 2011 Either post pics on this site & ask folk on here if they are interested in buying your bayonets or just list them on ebay.com (pm me for info) instead of ebay.co.uk, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 June , 2011 Share Posted 5 June , 2011 Either post pics on this site & ask folk on here if they are interested in buying your bayonets or just list them on ebay.com (pm me for info) instead of ebay.co.uk, Aleck I think advertising on here would be restricted to a particular area (GWF Classifieds) of the forum and also to members who have more than 50 posts. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 5 June , 2011 Share Posted 5 June , 2011 50 posts, thats way more than any other forum I use but suppose there must be a reason for this. Is it a sort of verification of the person selling Chris? Looks like epay will be his best bet then, shame as usually find that stuff gets sold a lot cheaper between members on forums. Just had a quick look at the classifieds & it says members must have at least 100 posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 June , 2011 Share Posted 5 June , 2011 Shame as usually find that stuff gets sold a lot cheaper between members on forums. Interested parties can always contact the prospective seller via the PM system, and make further enquiries and/or transact off Forum. British P1907's without the clearance hole (NCH) are uncommon and getting harder to find - I know because I routinely search for them on the net. When you do find them they seldom make a premium as they are usually that badly described that no-one notices, that or they are badly photographed. I always make a point of buying them as they are normally in genuine WW1 shape, as lack of hole means they have never been in for any refurbishment. The WW1 era Lithgow P1907's are the exception as they were always made without the clearance hole, and are seldom found to have had it added later. The favourite targets that I am always searching for are the HQR (hook quillon removed) and the NCH (no clearance hole) varieties of the common P1907. In my mind these examples are the quintessential British bayonets of the Great War, and any ones surviving from these types are sure to have been 'there'. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnionJack Posted 8 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 8 June , 2011 PM'd you Sawdoc34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 8 June , 2011 Share Posted 8 June , 2011 PM'd you Sawdoc34 Martin, replied couple of days ago to the PM you sent on the 6th via the email link but if you PMd again today it hasnt come through yet mate. Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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