WHY UNDERGARMENTS?!

[GRANVILLE]

Have been reading Blunden's Undertones of War for the umpteenth time and came across the passage where he writes about dealing with the German dead. He tells of how the German authorities needed a sample of the deceased soldier’s underwear in order to verify the loss. Blunden describes how the men detailed to this task had difficulty cutting up the clothing with their knives - it was freezing at the time.

Can someone explain to me how a cut off portion of underwear serves any purpose at all, and why underwear? Why not lapel, epaulette or whatever?

Dave

[Lachlan]

The German authorities only wanted some brief identification

[headgardener]

Must have wanted something with the man's name on it, and someone could easily put on another man's jacket. But another man's underwear....?!

I wonder if they found a lot of casualties by the name of Johan LANGE.........?

(LONG, John... For the non-German speakers).

I'll get me coat........

[Piorun]

Probably for the embroidered name label that was usually sewn onto underwear at the time, especially if it was to be laundered or simply washed in bulk. Quite common in boarding schools, the Scouts, the military, etc. even in my day. Antony

[centurion]

Probably for the embroidered name label that was usually sewn onto underwear at the time, especially if it was to be laundered or simply washed in bulk. Quite common in boarding schools, the Scouts, the military, etc. even in my day. Antony

Close but I think it was the regimental laundry mark (in indelible pencil) which would give you name, number and unit.

[punjab612]

I suppose they wondered why all the British soldiers were called St Michael!

[David B]

Boy, we have some wits around here today, nice to see a little light humour.

[GRANVILLE]

Boy, we have some wits around here today, nice to see a little light humour.

It is, but clearly no one is entirely sure & yet from the way Blunden writes, this was fairly common practice at the time?

Dave

[chris mccarthy]

If identifying a body required delving down into the underwear of dead soldiers, I can understand now why there is so many unknown soldiers.

[GRANVILLE]

Here's the passage roughly in context.

From Chpt 16: One more glimpse; (he's trying to describe certain scenes to the reader) the German bodies are carried down to Potijze Chateau. We are required to send back specimens of German army underclothing. Paige and Babbage, most mild of garden-loving men, have to cut the clothing off with jack-knives. The frost has made it particularly difficult.

For those unaware, Edmund Blunden is a young officer at the time of writing.

I would have thought if they were hunting for portions of underclothing bearing the wearers names he would have referred to doing exactly that, but the way it’s written it almost sounds as though any potion of underclothing was all that was required which to me just does not make sense, as I can't see what specific value it would serve above something much more accessible such as a lapel or collar or etc?

Dave

[alex falbo]

Why wouldn't they break the bottom half of the collar disc?

[Steven Broomfield]

Is it possible that in some dark and cavernous part of GHQ, a campaign was being waged based on the quality (decline of) in German shreddies? Some strange correlation between the fighting effectiveness of the Hun and the declining standard from silk underwear to recycled paper, or something?

[dfaulder]

I suppose that if you can extract a portion of a man's underwear you can assume that he was either dead or you had a most unusual relationship with the enemy.

But without standardising which part was extracted you could get double sampling ...

David

[centurion]

Is it possible that in some dark and cavernous part of GHQ, a campaign was being waged based on the quality (decline of) in German shreddies? Some strange correlation between the fighting effectiveness of the Hun and the declining standard from silk underwear to recycled paper, or something?

Clothing and related material was one of the contraband items in the blockade. The army took priority for what was available. Possibly by regularly sampling what material was being used for military underwear useful economic intelligence might be obtained such as how successful was the blockade in stopping certain materials? If the army couldn't get them then the civilian population would be suffering so if army underwear is made out of inferior ersatz material that tells one something, if, on the other hand, they are wearing cotton made shorts and vests then there is a serious problem as there must be plenty of cotton available for explosives. One of the main sources for German (and KuK) good quality linen pre war was Ireland and Turkey. Obviously the Irish source was blocked and attempts were made to interdict the Turkish supplies. Linen was used for many strategic and military things (parachute harness, aircraft fabric etc etc). Seeing the quality of linen used in undercloths (if it was still being used at all could also be revealing.

[GRANVILLE]

Clothing and related material was one of the contraband items in the blockade. The army took priority for what was available. Possibly by regularly sampling what material was being used for military underwear useful economic intelligence might be obtained such as how successful was the blockade in stopping certain materials? If the army couldn't get them then the civilian population would be suffering so if army underwear is made out of inferior ersatz material that tells one something, if, on the other hand, they are wearing cotton made shorts and vests then there is a serious problem as there must be plenty of cotton available for explosives. One of the main sources for German (and KuK) good quality linen pre war was Ireland and Turkey. Obviously the Irish source was blocked and attempts were made to interdict the Turkish supplies. Linen was used for many strategic and military things (parachute harness, aircraft fabric etc etc). Seeing the quality of linen used in undercloths (if it was still being used at all could also be revealing.

This reads like a step in the right direction. When I first read the passage and Blunden wrote: we were required to send back specimens of German army underclothing, I had presumed he meant 'send back to the Germans' with the casualty figures. In the light of the above I don't think this was what he meant at all, and the sending back would have been to DHQ for reasons now suggested. Makes sense.

[Piorun]

Close but I think it was the regimental laundry mark (in indelible pencil) which would give you name, number and unit.

Thank you for the memories, C. My mind is focussed on a wee label embroidered with red thread. I had forgotten indelible pencils. Once we got the full context of the query, your further explanation also hits a mark. I was quite misled by the OPs use of "in order to verify the loss". If it was to verify the loss of the man, it wouldn't be to verify the source of his underpants. Oh well! The Forum keeps me exercised. Thanks again. Antony

[alex falbo]

I too was under the impression by what he (Blunden) wrote that they were collecting soldier identification for the German graves registration units. Taken out of context its vague but I'm sure that sending the materials to GHQ for intel assessment sounds more the case. I would imagine soldiers were also instructed on night patrols or in raids to take pieces of downed aircraft parts, various food stuffs, etc to see what the Germans had.

Berlin alone had something to the effect of 56 food riots by the end of 1916 (turnip winter).

[centurion]

Berlin alone had something to the effect of 56 food riots by the end of 1916 (turnip winter).

The figures I have are 30 for the whole of Germany. It wasn't the blockade that caused Turnip Winter although it was the war. In 1913/14 Germany was a net exporter of basic food stuffs (ie self sufficient and not dependent on food imports and in theory capable of withstanding a blockade in terms of food. Reserves of wheat were also high. The problem was that with the diversion of so many men and horses to the front as well as the requisition of nitrates used for fertilizers into explosives manufacture, wheat production in 1915 and 16 fell off a cliff. Potatoes were substituted as needing much less manpower etc but then the winter of 1916 killed most of the potato stocks! Turnips are frost resistant but using these meant shorting the animal feed so meat and dairy production suffered. The shortage of grain had already hammered egg production.

In terms of clothing - before the war Germany bought much of its cotton from Egypt and India (attempts to produce the crop in German colonies had not taken off and in any case there was a little problem of the Royal Navy which also hit attempts yo buy from the USA). A lot of wool came from Australia and Linen from Ireland. Nettle fibres were substituted for flax for linen and attempts were made to increase domestic wool production (which could only be done at the expense of wheat production) but the army snaffled much of this.

[KevinBattle]

Brilliant explanation, Centurion....

I do like the idea that the Germans were reduced to

Nettle fibres were substituted

in their underpants!!

Brings a whole new meaning to "All Quiet on the Western (Y) Fronts"!!!!

[centurion]

The whole topic of ersatz in the Central Powers is interesting. Things like instruments in KuK aircraft falling out of their mountings and switches snapping off because the metals used as ersatz brass were far too brittle and/or tended to oxidise cast a new light on their ability to wage a long war. Germany may have planned on a short victorious war but to have had no diplomatic 'plan B' to avoid a protracted conflict on two major fronts and with an enemy that was the world's premier naval power was sheer lunacy. There was so much in which the Central Powers were not self sufficient. I suspect that even without the 100 days in 1918 Germany would have collapsed in 1919.

[alex falbo]

I appreciate the enlightenment Centurion. I'll get the source of the figure I posted. I believe many of their metals were also imported from Scandinavia correct? As many of us read the Germans lacked strategic vision beyond their initial war aims. The Allied tactics during the war are mercilessly and incorrectly lambasted and accused of inflexibility and lack of thought. But the final result paints quite a different picture.

[centurion]

I appreciate the enlightenment Centurion. I'll get the source of the figure I posted. I believe many of their metals were also imported from Scandinavia correct? As many of us read the Germans lacked strategic vision beyond their initial war aims. The Allied tactics during the war are mercilessly and incorrectly lambasted and accused of inflexibility and lack of thought. But the final result paints quite a different picture.

Iron ore was imported from Sweden in huge quantities in both world wars, without this both wars would have been much shorter. However there was a problem for the Central Powers over those metals like tin, nickel, tungsten (wolfram), chrome and even zinc (needed for brass). These were needed to to produce all sorts of essential alloys including specialist steels (steel is an alloy). Most deposits of these were either located within the British and French empires or in the Americas and China (where Allied sea power could block transport). There was much largely unchronicled undercover activity in many neutral producers with German and British agents attempting to facilitate or block access. Robert Wilson's novel "A Small Death in Lisbon" gives an excellent idea of this in WW2 but it was going on in WW1 too. Germany built some very large merchant U boats to carry such very valuable cargo but by the time they were ready either British agents had got the upper hand or the countries in question had joined the Allied cause. Turkey did have some resources (for example zinc) but it was difficult to get it to the other Central Powers in quantity especially as the Allies did their best (including sabotage) to block this. There appears to have been some unofficial economic warfare between the Central Powers over who got what share (Germany seems to have won). Neutral Scandinavian countries and shipping were used to get such metals to Germany but with or without the active knowledge and connivance of their governments remains unclear (I would warn any researcher that one can unleash some very virulent nationalist responses from some counties if raising some of this- doubtless from a small minority but unpleasant nevertheless).

[Sapper Will]

By 'underclothing' he could have been referring to their shirts. In the Victorian and Edwardian eras, when people rarely appeared in their shirtsleeves, the shirt was not considered an overgarment but was part of the underwear. It's not hard to imagine a member of the officer class in 1914-18 using this slightly archaic terminology.

[Piorun]

Interesting point! Antony