Siege Parks

[Peridot]

Hi All

I am studying an officer's service record to whom my grandfather was Batman. There are two undated entries on the record which read as follows: "H" Corps Siege Park (323 SBAC, List No.......) and "X" Corps Siege Park (12 SBAC, List No........)

I understand that a Siege Park establishment was small and comprised about 40 men, which was probably an HQ.

My query is what did the rest of the Siege Park comprise of, and was there a constant movement of men and Batteries in and out of the Park ? Alternatively did the constitution of the Batteries within the Siege Park remain constant, which would exlain the apparent attachment of men as Ammunition Columns to particular Batteries as outlined in the officer's entries above?

Is this a correct interpretation of what these entries mean?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks

Peridot

[David B]

Peridot,

the link is from an answer about a month on siege parks and the ASC, may help you.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110970

[Peridot]

Thanks David-I have seen that reply before-what's confusing me I think is the mention of a Corps Siege Park in the Service Record and then in brackets, a particular SBAC within it, as if the Batteries within the Park remained constant-I was under the impression, certainly from the condensed history of IX Corps Siege Park (717 ASC Co) which I have read, that the numbers of men and constituent Batteries were constantly changing. Very confusing!!

Peridot

[David B]

Peridot,

I think we will have to wait until someone more knowledgeable (not very hard) than me can fully answer your question. A quick google does not bring up anything of importance and Farndale's book on the

Royal Regiment of Artillery doesn't give a mention of Siege Parks. I sometimes think he was more interested in getting the names of the CO's correct.

Cheers

[Peridot]

Thanks again David. I think the term Siege Park was only in use from Jan-Sept 1917 and then the Units became known as "Corps Heavy Artillery MT Companies". My background is Naval and I think I am also having difficulty in visualising the scale of these types of operation as well as the logistics. Take care.

Peridot

[David B]

Peridot,

Not surprisingly, I have the same background.

Cheers

[pjjobson]

Peridot

This doesn't answer your query completely, but might be of interest:

A Central Depot, usually on a Corps basis, where Army Service Corps lorries required to draw the heavier guns were located. Siege Parks were originally known by the more unwieldy title, Companies ASC attached heavy artillery. Later in the war, they reverted to this title. Siege Parks operated on a pool principle, in that the guns did not have their own dedicated vehicles, but were assigned towing vehicles as and when required. Siege Parks had an establishment of five officers and one hundred and forty-six men. (WW1)

Regards

Phil

[michaeldr]

Looking at Col Michael Young's history 'Army Service Corps 1902-1918' (pub. Leo Cooper, 2000, ISBN 085052 730 9) he has on page 105

"…the Quartermaster General approved on 17 January 1917 a reorganization of mechanical transport on a Corps basis. The winter of 1917-1918 saw this project put into effect…

Pooling was imposed on all units and formations. Considerable reductions in the number of vehicles were thus made and there was a worthwhile saving in manpower… "

The Corps Siege Park is defined as "composed generally of a MT Company attached to the Corps Heavy Artillery" and on page 111 Col Young also gives

"Siege Parks attached to Corps were designed for work with Heavy Artillery, but were administered by the ASC. They were answerable to the Heavy Artillery for the haulage of guns, supplying ammunition to batteries when in position, and the movement of batteries, also to the MT Branch of the ASC for the upkeep of lorries and administration of personnel. Even the driver of the Battery Commander's car was only 'attached' to the battery. Battery Commanders did not have direct command over the separate columns attached to them, which had its disadvantages. The planning of parks for lorries and tractors was naturally dependent upon the positions of the guns and the situation of the ammunition railheads, but the movement of lorries was a matter for the ASC. Members of the Corps who supported the heavy guns were often involved in activities which brought them in constant danger, largely due to enemy shelling. A good number became casualties and a number received decorations for bravery."

The following comes from one of the 'War Establishment' tables provided by Col Young in his Annex N, and it illustrates "Mechanical Transport for a Siege Artillery Battery (12 inch Mark II Howitzers)" on the Western Front in August 1915. Please note the date! This is NOT an ASC company as a Siege Park, but rather its earlier incarnation. None the less, it may give some help or idea of the ASC's role in handling a Heavy Artillery battery

PERSONNEL

Captain – 1

Subalterns – 3 (including 2 for workshops)

Mechanist SM (WO) – 1

Company SM (WO) – 1

Company QMS – 1

Artificers

Foremen – 2

Fitters & turners 12

Blacksmiths – 4

Wheelers – 4

Electricians – 2

Drivers

Sergeants – 2

For tractors – 39

For lorries – 52

For motor cars – 4

Spare – 47

Batmen – 4

Personnel totals – Officers 4, WOs 2, SSgts & Sgts 3, Artificers 24, Rank & File 149

VEHICLES

For howitzers & equipment – 12 Caterpillar Tractors

For ammunition – 8 three-ton lorries

For baggage & stores – 10 three-ton lorries

For personnel – 2 Motor Cars (1 for RA) and 5 Motor Cycles (3 for RA, incl. 1 with side-car)

For workshops – 2 three-ton lorries

For workshop stores – 2 three-ton lorries

For workshop personnel – 2 Motor Cars, 4 Motor Cycles and 2 thirty-cwt lorries

Vehicle totals – 4 Motor Cars, 9 Motor Cycles, 24 three-ton lorries, 2 thirty-cwt lorries and 13 caterpillar tractors

[Peridot]

Hi Phil and Michael and thanks for the helpful answers. The information leads me to presume that a certain portion of the rank and file would be allocated as Ammunition Column to a given Battery allocated to the Corps Heavy Artillery for the time being and for its duration with the Corps and that this would explain the entry in brackets in the Service Record?

Would that be a correct assumption?

Also is it possible to put a number total on the Siege Batteries which would have been attached to the Corps at any one time that the Siege Park would have been expected to service?

Thanks

Peridot

[michaeldr]

Peridot,

the information which I quoted above is all I have on this, so I am unable to say how correct (or not) your presumption is. But, we have seen already that the new Siege Park structure included the delivery of ammunition in its job description, so it sounds reasonable enough.

However, (and please note that I am guessing here) under the pooling system it may be a mistake to presume that the 8 lorries for the delivery of ammunition were permanently engaged in that capacity or permanently attached from the Siege Park to a particular Battery.

My impression from the little information available is that flexibility was one of the prime purposes of the new system and I can give a couple of examples from elsewhere in Young's history:-

In Sept 1917 L/Cpl Oxford of 227th SBAC gained the MM while i/c six lorries loaded with RE stores (not ammunition)

and in March 1918 lorries from a Siege Park were used to transport Canadian infantry

[Peridot]

Thanks Michael and a lot clearer now.

Peridot