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Remembered Today:

Qualifications, Honours and Awards


Sue Light

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When writing biographical details, which should come first, professional or military qualifications/awards. I'm thinking particularly of medical officers, and as an example:

FRASER, Alexander Donald, MB, Ch.B, DSO, MC and Bar; or should it be 'DSO, MC and Bar, MB, Ch.B.'

My assumption is that the professional should come before the military, but am I right?

Sue

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Sue

A London Gazette that I have for William Kealty Cambell has DSO MC MB

He won a Bar to the MC but it does not appear after his name.

Nigel

Sue

Not sure if you are interested, but I have a photo of a War Memorial in St Anee's Cathedral Belfast for Nurses in the Great War ... PM me if you want a copy.

Nigel

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Sue

This is from the website of the Ministry of Justice:

Bt or Bart for Baronet, and Esq for Esquire, precede all other abbreviations after names. Other designations follow in the order set out below:

  1. Orders and Decorations conferred by the Crown i.e. CB., OBE. etc.
  2. Appointments in the following order: Queen's Counsel (QC), Justice of the Peace (JP), Deputy Lieutenant (DL) and Member of Parliament/Devolved Assembly (MP. MSP. AM. MLA.)
  3. University degrees
  4. Religious Orders and medical qualifications
  5. Fellowships of learned societies, Royal Academicians, Associates, Fellowships, Membership of Professional Institutions, Associations etc
  6. Membership of the Armed Forces

Aled

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I presume that DSO/MC would come under Orders and Decorations conferred by the Crown

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I presume that DSO/MC would come under Orders and Decorations conferred by the Crown

Thanks for all the replies so far, but I would appreciate clarification of the point above - if it's so, then definitely MC before MB. But it has made me chuckle, as the 'MA, MB, MC, MD' problem is exactly what I'm fighting with at present, and for about thirty-five different men. And believe it or not, I've actually got one who also can proudly boast 'MP'. :wacko:

Sue

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And does anyone have any comments or corrections on these, for example

KCB, CMG, DSO, MD,

CBE, MA(Oxon), MD(Copenhagen), FRS,

CB, MP, MD, FRCS,

DSO, MB, Ch.B,

Sue

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Yes, awards (including military) made by the state/crown precede all others, in the manner set out in the Order of Wear published in the London Gazette from time to time, the current one being http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/56878/supplements/3351 from March 2003 I believe (this for the UK obviously, same basic principle would have applied to the Dominions in WWI, but the Commonwealth Realms now have their own versions reflecting the gradual separation of the honours systems). The basic idea O's that the monarch is the "fount of honour" so distinctions conferred directly by them take precedence

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That is order of precedence of honours and awards not precedence of all, including educational, post nominal award abbreviations. We are talking about 2 different subjects, so there is no precedence apart from accepted practice.

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And does anyone have any comments or corrections on these, for example

KCB, CMG, DSO, MD,

CBE, MA(Oxon), MD(Copenhagen), FRS,

CB, MP, MD, FRCS,

DSO, MB, Ch.B,

Sue

They seem to be in order as suggested, Sue. Just don't do the American thing and list BA, MA :mellow: . Antony

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We had previously had the overall precedence as set out by MOJ above, the Order of Wear confirms how military decorations fit among those distinctions awarded by the Crown

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For example, my other half is, on her business cards:

AE LLB TEP

1. Distinction - Air Efficiency Award (Only officers permitted to use the post nominals)

2. Academic - Bachelor of Law

3. Professional - Trust and Estate Practitioner

Yes, I agree with that Americanism 'BA MA' - yuck. Mind you, I went to the kind of school whose handbook used to put after the teachers' names BA (Birm) MA (Sheff) PGCE (Lon) sort of thing.

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Yes, I agree with that Americanism 'BA MA' - yuck. Mind you, I went to the kind of school whose handbook used to put after the teachers' names BA (Birm) MA (Sheff) PGCE (Lon) sort of thing.

I think that school handbooks and notice-boards are about the only places you will see that, and it is particularly common if the Head is (Cantab) or (Oxon). The 1950s comedy series "Whacko!" starring Jimmy Edwads as the headmaster of a school called Chiselbury described him as MA (Cantab) - which, in his case, was actually true.

Ron

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They seem to be in order as suggested, Sue. Just don't do the American thing and list BA, MA :mellow: . Antony

But if you were an American with say an Honourary DSO, wouldn't you be tempted to do a "UK personalised Number plate job" on your post nominals and become:

John Doe, DS O ba ma ?

David

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Another thank you to everybody. I think that that 'MA(Oxon)' is the only example in the whole thing, and I suspect used as the man (Dreyer) was a Dane with no initial academic or medical training in the UK, although he did become a prominent professor of pathology at Oxford. However, it is interesting to note that some of these men were the most illustrious of their time, and once they received (for instance) a knightood, their medical qualifications went out of the window, in print at least, and are rarely mentioned in biographies or obituaries*.

Sue

Edit: Meaning not mentioned as post-nominals - they were mentioned in the actual biographies!!

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Sue, if you wish to draw attention to a Bar, you could put an asterisk in - as in MC*. Not sure how "official" it is, but it is widely used (certainly on this here Forum).

In the London Jocks our Colour Sergeant put a notice on the door of the Stores, with his name at the foot, after which someone had written BA (failed). After that was added the word "Calcutta", followed by another word: "Twice". It still makes me chuckle after all these years.

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Sue, if you wish to draw attention to a Bar, you could put an asterisk in - as in MC*. Not sure how "official" it is, but it is widely used (certainly on this here Forum).

I have a feeling that the intended audience will be a bit less au fait with things military or medical, so I think I'd better stick to the longer and more cumbersome :)

Sue

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In the London Jocks our Colour Sergeant put a notice on the door of the Stores, with his name at the foot, after which someone had written BA (failed). After that was added the word "Calcutta", followed by another word: "Twice". It still makes me chuckle after all these years.

Someone must have seen the Peter Sellers/Sophia Loren film "The Millionairess" in which PS, playing an Indian doctor, describes himself (IIRC) as MD Delhi, PhD Calcutta, BA Cantab - failed.

Ron

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This is from the website of the Ministry of Justice:

Bt or Bart for Baronet, and Esq for Esquire, precede all other abbreviations after names. Other designations follow in the order set out below:

  1. Orders and Decorations conferred by the Crown i.e. CB., OBE. etc.
  2. Appointments in the following order: Queen's Counsel (QC), Justice of the Peace (JP), Deputy Lieutenant (DL) and Member of Parliament/Devolved Assembly (MP. MSP. AM. MLA.)
  3. University degrees
  4. Religious Orders and medical qualifications
  5. Fellowships of learned societies, Royal Academicians, Associates, Fellowships, Membership of Professional Institutions, Associations etc
  6. Membership of the Armed Forces

Still trying to get all this correct. I was interested in the order here which includes 'MP' at No.2, above medical qualifications. However, this page from Debrett's has MP much lower down the list. The original obituary of the man concerned, Thomas Sinclair, does have 'MP' as his final post-nominal, so having changed it after Aled's reply, I've now changed it back again, but am sure there will still be some arguments over where it belongs!

Debrett's 'Letters after the name'

Sue

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Still trying to get all this correct. I was interested in the order here which includes 'MP' at No.2, above medical qualifications. However, this page from Debrett's has MP much lower down the list....

Debrett's 'Letters after the name'

Sue

Sue

This is a good illustration of the fact that points such as these are matters of courtesy and etiquette, not of formal regulation. In any case, it is largely academic, as comparatively few MPs seem to have additional qualifications which are lower down in the MOJ list!

Ron

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