Feather Bonnet

[133.R]

Hi

i can get a feather bonnet from the Gordon Highlander. I think it was made until 1945. The lower band is made of silk and not leather. Can anybody say more about the date? What is a realistic price ?

Thanks !

[Piorun]

A new one would cost about £170/£270. Antony

[DrB]

Be careful when pursuing this critter. Remember, a badge or plume does not necssarily proclaim the feather bonnet to be regimentally correct.

Black Watch: four tails, diced red-white-blue

Seaforth: five tails, diced red-white-green

Gordon: five tails, diced red-white-green

Camerons:five tails, diced red-white-blue

Argyll and Sutherland: six tails, diced red-white

Good luck on your quest!

Doc B

[pbrydon]

A picture of my Liverpool Scottish officers feather bonnet is attached.It has the initials W.N. inside which must be for William Nicholl, the C.O. at the outbreak of WW1 but he was considered too old to take the battalion to France.

Definately NOT for sale but I suspect ( and hope ) other L.S feather bonnets might achieve a four figure sum at auction.

P.B.

[gordon92]

Be careful when pursuing this critter. Remember, a badge or plume does not necssarily proclaim the feather bonnet to be regimentally correct.

Black Watch: four tails, diced red-white-blue

Seaforth: five tails, diced red-white-green

Gordon: five tails, diced red-white-green

Camerons:five tails, diced red-white-blue

Argyll and Sutherland: six tails, diced red-white

Good luck on your quest!

Doc B

Was going through some old threads on this forum, and I thought I might add something to the matter of regimental distinctions in number of tails on feather bonnets for anyone still interested. The number of tails noted above is correct but held only for officers who packed away their feather bonnets in storage when moving to an overseas station. Prior to 1914, ORs handed in their bonnets before proceeding overseas. Those bonnets were then issued to the next Highland battalion returning home from a foreign station without regard to number of tails; rebadging and changeout of hackles were done as needed. Hence, any pre-1914 OR feather bonnet surviving today may appear to have a bonnet badge inconsistent with number of tails, yet could be an entirely authentic artifact. The foregoing was conveyed to me by a friend whose father served in a pre-1914 Highland regiment.

Edit: Argyll & Sutherland Hldrs was probably an exception to the above.

[Tom A McCluskey]

I don’t think this is true for The Black Watch, nor do I believe any self-respecting pre-War Quartermaster of The Black Watch would allow this to be the case within his battalion (and probably not post War either). Plus, the evidence is stacked against this anecdote. Standing Orders for the 1st Black Watch are very specific about details of headress and this would be well known to those within the Battalion charged with inspecting soldiers for details such as parades and guard mount.

Standing Orders for the 1^st Battalion The Black Watch 1906:

“The men must be taught to pay particular attention to their dress, which will beget a feeling of self-pride very conducive to their general good conduct and as in Highland regiments so much depends on the manner and taste of each individual in arranging the different articles of dress this is the more essentially necessary.”

“The high reputation they have so justly gained may be chiefly attributed to the esprit de corps, which has always belonged to them, and attention to these particulars of dress will greatly contribute to keep it alive.”

“The bonnet will be ten inches high with four foxtails hanging in a general slope from six inches in length below the binding for the front tail to eight inches for the rear tail. The front tail is to be in rear of the right eye: the hackle, which should not reach above the bonnet, should be exactly above the left ear. Thirty inches of ribbon forming a tie eleven inches long will be placed over the opening at the rear of the bonnet: a rosette of silk ribbon three inches in diameter will be placed below the badge.”

The Regimental pattern of four foxtails is evident in Ian Robertson’s excellent thread about his great uncle, Tom Wilkie. Tom served in the 1^st Battalion The Black Watch at Oudenarde Barracks, Aldershot, prior to the War. You can see the troops carrying out admin-type cleaning tasks with their kit on this thread in post number 23 - where you can actually count the foxtails on a couple of the bonnets.

http://1914-1918.inv...opic=62996&st=0

Additionally, it is worth noting Clothing Regulations 1914, para 59, which states feather bonnets ‘will be provided regimentally' and explains the mechanism for making this so:

"Feather bonnets will be provided regimentally at rates given in the Priced Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries. An annual allowance will be granted for repairs and for the renewal of hackles and cases and bonnet covers for the bonnets in wear. When bonnets are transferred from one battalion to another wearing a hackle and border of a different pattern, an estimate of the cost of providing the proper pattern will be forwarded to the chief ordnance officer, Royal Army Clothing Department, whose sanction is necessary before any expenditure on this account can be incurred. The hackles taken from the bonnets in such cases will be returned to the depot from which the bonnets were transferred."

I hope this is of interest,

Aye,

Tom McC

[gordon92]

I don’t think this is true for The Black Watch, nor do I believe any self-respecting pre-War Quartermaster of The Black Watch would allow this to be the case within his battalion (and probably not post War either). Plus, the evidence is stacked against this anecdote. Standing Orders for the 1st Black Watch are very specific about details of headress and this would be well known to those within the Battalion charged with inspecting soldiers for details such as parades and guard mount.

Standing Orders for the 1^st Battalion The Black Watch 1906:

“The men must be taught to pay particular attention to their dress, which will beget a feeling of self-pride very conducive to their general good conduct and as in Highland regiments so much depends on the manner and taste of each individual in arranging the different articles of dress this is the more essentially necessary.”

“The high reputation they have so justly gained may be chiefly attributed to the esprit de corps, which has always belonged to them, and attention to these particulars of dress will greatly contribute to keep it alive.”

“The bonnet will be ten inches high with four foxtails hanging in a general slope from six inches in length below the binding for the front tail to eight inches for the rear tail. The front tail is to be in rear of the right eye: the hackle, which should not reach above the bonnet, should be exactly above the left ear. Thirty inches of ribbon forming a tie eleven inches long will be placed over the opening at the rear of the bonnet: a rosette of silk ribbon three inches in diameter will be placed below the badge.”

The Regimental pattern of four foxtails is evident in Ian Robertson’s excellent thread about his great uncle, Tom Wilkie. Tom served in the 1^st Battalion The Black Watch at Oudenarde Barracks, Aldershot, prior to the War. You can see the troops carrying out admin-type cleaning tasks with their kit on this thread in post number 23 - where you can actually count the foxtails on a couple of the bonnets.

http://1914-1918.inv...opic=62996&st=0

Additionally, it is worth noting Clothing Regulations 1914, para 59, which states feather bonnets ‘will be provided regimentally' and explains the mechanism for making this so:

"Feather bonnets will be provided regimentally at rates given in the Priced Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries. An annual allowance will be granted for repairs and for the renewal of hackles and cases and bonnet covers for the bonnets in wear. When bonnets are transferred from one battalion to another wearing a hackle and border of a different pattern, an estimate of the cost of providing the proper pattern will be forwarded to the chief ordnance officer, Royal Army Clothing Department, whose sanction is necessary before any expenditure on this account can be incurred. The hackles taken from the bonnets in such cases will be returned to the depot from which the bonnets were transferred."

I hope this is of interest,

Aye,

Tom McC

Thanks for the clarification, Tom. I take note of your contradictory evidence, and it appears to be quite forceful. I have no way of further reinforcing the noted anecdote as it was related to me.

[gordon92]

This is a follow-up on your post of yesterday, Tom, where you provided exerpts from the 1906 Black Watch Standing Orders for which I am grateful as I had not previously seen these. I think we need to be careful about an overly literal interpretation of some of these dress specifications, eg.,

“The bonnet will be ten inches high with four foxtails hanging in a general slope from six inches in length below the binding for the front tail to eight inches for the rear tail. The front tail is to be in rear of the right eye: the hackle, which should not reach above the bonnet, should be exactly above the left ear. Thirty inches of ribbon forming a tie eleven inches long will be placed over the opening at the rear of the bonnet: a rosette of silk ribbon three inches in diameter will be placed below the badge.”

There are many exceptions to be found. Regarding “the hackle, which should not reach above the bonnet" please see the two photos below, one of ORs 1909 at The Curragh and the other of an officer from an earlier time.

I have two BW feather bonnets in my collection: an OR bonnet whose hackle exceeds the top of the bonnet plus an officer's where the hackle conforms to the noted specification. Both of these bonnets are slighly over 11 inches in height exceeding the 10 inches of the specification. I have no doubts about the authenticity of these bonnets as they are attributed to specific soldiers by physical markings.

I am not at all asserting that these dress regulations were disregarded on a wholesale basis, but rather that these were interpreted as general guidelines with some license to deviate as a concession to practicalities of what might be readily available from vendors in the case of ORs items and to personal preferences, in some degree, on the part of officers.

Thanks again for furnishing some interesting data that had not been known to me.

[jholl72]

Hi guys,

Interesting discussion about feather bonnets being reissued. I recenty acquired one and thought I would post it here as it may perhaps be one that was reissued.

As it sits now it a five tail, red and white diced bonnet badged to the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. According to previous information this one should be a six tail bonnet.

Having a good look inside, there is a cardboard strip that looks like it may have been a stiffener under a previous sweatband. Could this be one of the reissued bonnets? What about the age of this bonnet? At first I was thinking post WWII but I'm not sure. Its very hard to find interior pictures or information on the net about these. Thoughts?

I can post any other pictures that would be helpful.

picture sharing

pic upload

[KevinBattle]

I see no mention of a handhold above the left ear with access to a small pouch, above the wearers head in which to secrete fags etc......

Apparently much used in my old Pipe Band by those of the smoking persuasion......

I used it for storing my white drummers gloves in readiness for cold days!

[gordon92]

Hi guys,

Interesting discussion about feather bonnets being reissued. I recenty acquired one and thought I would post it here as it may perhaps be one that was reissued.

As it sits now it a five tail, red and white diced bonnet badged to the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. According to previous information this one should be a six tail bonnet.

Having a good look inside, there is a cardboard strip that looks like it may have been a stiffener under a previous sweatband. Could this be one of the reissued bonnets? What about the age of this bonnet? At first I was thinking post WWII but I'm not sure. Its very hard to find interior pictures or information on the net about these. Thoughts?

I can post any other pictures that would be helpful.

picture sharing

pic upload

Interesting feather bonnet, jholl72.

Obviously, the bonnet has been subject to some hard wear. Regarding dating, the affixed badge is that of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada. This badge with King's Crown was worn 1936-1952. If this badge is the original one, then this is a clue to dating. You might check to see if the present badge appears to be a replacement or original. Is it fitted with a brooch pin or lugs?

[jholl72]

Hi Gordon92,

The badge is affixed with lugs. It doesn't appear to have been on there for a long period of time. I was thinking maybe it was reworked for WWII use and the bonnet itself was older, I don't have access to any other bonnets to check out the liner styes or cage styles. also that cardboard sweatband piece has me scratching my head, it looks like it is from an earlier date.