Winter SD cap questions

[alex falbo]

Thought I'd post some queries in regard to the building of an impression and general further enlightenment on the subject. Wanted to get your opinions on the 'Gor Blimey's use by infantrymen at Arras 1917 in particular and generally any infantry use after its official withdraw in late 1916.

Secondly, did soldiers do anything to dull the reflection of their cap badges for wear in the firing line? I would assume most men would be wearing their Brodies after mid 1916.

I remember the issue of reflection given by the sun off the tops of SD caps with their wire brims still in place. So what was considered about the above problem?

Kind regards,

Alex

[FROGSMILE]

Thought I'd post some queries in regard to the building of an impression and general further enlightenment on the subject. Wanted to get your opinions on the 'Gor Blimey's use by infantrymen at Arras 1917 in particular and generally any infantry use after its official withdraw in late 1916.

Secondly, did soldiers do anything to dull the reflection of their cap badges for wear in the firing line? I would assume most men would be wearing their Brodies after mid 1916.

I remember the issue of reflection given by the sun off the tops of SD caps with their wire brims still in place. So what was considered about the above problem?

Kind regards,

Alex

Alex, as you say I understand that Brodies were worn pretty much continuously in the front line after May-June 1916 and caps only when out on rest in rear areas. Also, from 1917 on, more and more men started to wear hessian (sacking) covers on the Brodies to break down the outline and eliminate shine/reflection. Cap badges were polished. I have never read of any relaxation of that stance during my research of personal records and it seems that normal discipline prevailed.

[alex falbo]

Thanks for the post Bob.

I had discussed this only superficially in a previous thread I posted regarding a model I was building in '08. The topic of the cap's use post 1916 was touched upon. I was hoping to expand this conversation.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for the post Bob.

I had discussed this only superficially in a previous thread I posted regarding a model I was building in '08. The topic of the cap's use post 1916 was touched upon. I was hoping to expand this conversation.

Thanks for the reply Alex, I had not seen the previous thread.

Your models are extraordinarily good and a testament to great artistic and imaginative talent, not to mention painstaking research and attention to detail. I also could not help a wry smile when reading your anglicisms such as "lads", "chaps" and "half arsed" rather than your more natural (I imagine) half assed !

I am confident that cap badges were never dulled.

[alex falbo]

Hi Bob! Those anglicisms are surprisingly more natural than you'd think for me by now...ha ha! Although I must admit I seemed to be trying too hard in that post.

The reason for the cap question was born more out of the officer caps having been blackened (correct me if wrong term) out of standard practice.

Thanks for the compliments on the models. I could PM some links to other posts I've made with them if you like.

[FROGSMILE]

Hi Bob! Those anglicisms are surprisingly more natural than you'd think for me by now...ha ha! Although I must admit I seemed to be trying too hard in that post.

The reason for the cap question was born more out of the officer caps having been blackened (correct me if wrong term) out of standard practice.

Thanks for the compliments on the models. I could PM some links to other posts I've made with them if you like.

Yes please Alex, I would love to see the other links via PM.

The term most commonly used in my experienc for OSD badges is 'bronzed', but I do not know where that nomenclature originally came from.

By strange coincidence I just found this reference regarding your query on the dulling of badges and wanted to let you know straightaway:

"In the transport lines (ergo 'rear areas') men rarely wore steel helmets, but they did polish their buttons, shoulder titles and cap badges daily, while front-line soldiers were not expected to polish in the trenches". "There was a short-lived attempt to dull all brass fittings with acid, but the eventual policy was for brass to be allowed to tarnish in the line but to be shined when men came back from it".

This quote is by the well regarded and late lamented Professor Richard Holmes book "Tommy" page 335, but unusually and unlike all his other quotes in the book, he gives no reference and for that reason alone I would treat it with caution. To use acid would have defaced the badge and it was a military offence to wilfully deface the King's insignia when all that was necessary was to allow the badges to dull naturally.

[Sean_Featherstone]

Remeber that the P 08 W.E. pamphlet states in Section IV. - Care and Preservation - The metal work should not be polished but allowed to get dull, so as to avoid catching the rays of the sun"

I'd imagine that brass on uniforms would go the same way on Active Service otherwise it would negate the dulling of brasses on the webbing.

[FROGSMILE]

Remeber that the P 08 W.E. pamphlet states in Section IV. - Care and Preservation - The metal work should not be polished but allowed to get dull, so as to avoid catching the rays of the sun"

I'd imagine that brass on uniforms would go the same way on Active Service otherwise it would negate the dulling of brasses on the webbing.

Yes indeed, but regimental insignia, being iconography of great import within (certainly Regular) battalions, was viewed far differently to the more mundane brass fitments of Patt 08 Web Equipment. Soft caps and badges were worn outside the front line and individual histories and recollections are rife with comments about sergeant majors requiring cap badges to be polished. In the end it would be down to the attitudes and make up of the battalions concerned.

[Andrew Upton]

This quote is by the well regarded and late lamented Professor Richard Holmes book "Tommy" page 335, but unusually and unlike all his other quotes in the book, he gives no reference and for that reason alone I would treat it with caution. To use acid would have defaced the badge and it was a military offence to wilfully deface the King's insignia when all that was necessary was to allow the badges to dull naturally.

Almost certainly a reference to George Coppards "With A Machine Gun To Cambrai" prior to going overseas early in 1915, who goes into great detail on it - my copy, 1999, page 13:

"The next thing to astonish us was an order abolishing the cleaning of buttons and other bright parts of our equipment. Every piece of brass had to be dulled like gun-metal, and bottles of acid were issued for the purpose. Whoops of joy swept through the ranks. Never was there such speed in putting an order into effect. Even the blades of our bayonets did not escape the tarnishing process, for nothing that might gleam or glint in the sunlight was exempt from the prohibition. Surely this was the most revolutionary order ever given in the British Army. The lads fairly howled with delight as 'Soldier's Friend' was flung away by the hundredweight. 'If that's how they bleedin' well want it, that's how they're bleeding well going to get it,' remarked a wag."

However, as he remarks for August 1915, page 29:

"Sometime in August the battalion had a disageeable suprise sprung on it, for an order was given to resume full spit and polish of equipment. The luxury of not having to waste time and energy in senseless drudgery was to end. I don't know how high up the scale of rank the order came from. Whoever it was ignored the lessons of military history, which taught that troops should at all times be as inconspicuous as possible. Could it be that the top brass feared that they might lose proper control of the troops unless they reimposed the iron hand of 'Bull'? The polishing of brass gear in the trenches was the very negation of the superb camouflage of the khaki uniform. looking at it today it seems crazy, but that's how it was and we had to grin and bear it."

[FROGSMILE]

Almost certainly a reference to George Coppards "With A Machine Gun To Cambrai" prior to going overseas early in 1915, who goes into great detail on it - my copy, 1999, page 13:

"The next thing to astonish us was an order abolishing the cleaning of buttons and other bright parts of our equipment. Every piece of brass had to be dulled like gun-metal, and bottles of acid were issued for the purpose. Whoops of joy swept through the ranks. Never was there such speed in putting an order into effect. Even the blades of our bayonets did not escape the tarnishing process, for nothing that might gleam or glint in the sunlight was exempt from the prohibition. Surely this was the most revolutionary order ever given in the British Army. The lads fairly howled with delight as 'Soldier's Friend' was flung away by the hundredweight. 'If that's how they bleedin' well want it, that's how they're bleeding well going to get it,' remarked a wag."

However, as he remarks for August 1915, page 29:

"Sometime in August the battalion had a disageeable suprose sprung on it, for an order was given to resume full spit and polish of equipment. The luxury of not having to waste time and energy in senseless drudgery was to end. I don't know how high up the scale of rank the order came from. Whoever it was ignored the lessons of military history, which taught that troops should at all times be as inconspicuous as possible. Could it be that the top brass feared that they might lose proper control of the troops unless they reimposed the iron hand of 'Bull'? The polishing of brass gear in the trenches was the very negation of the superb camouflage of the khaki uniform. looking at it today it seems crazy, but that's how it was and we had to grin and bear it."

Thank you. It's as I thought and very interesting. The advantage with allowing tarnishing, as opposed to permanent defacement with acid, is obviously the badges can be returned to lustre at a later stage. There are parallels with that situation at Camp Bastion in Afghanistan today and the soldiery's reaction is not dissimilar. 'Plus ca change'

Incidentally, George Coppard's mention of 'acid' is the only example I have heard of in the myriad of personal recollections that exist.

[FROGSMILE]

Hello Frogsmile,

A veteran I used to visit told me that when he joined a reserve Battalion of the Rifle Brigade at Shoeburyness, after being posted from a TR Battalion, he was told along with his fellow recruits that they would have to buy a full set of rifles buttons. This was at their own expense (not inconsiderable he recalled) from the Battalion canteen. The alternative they were offered was to chemically blacken their GS buttons. I would imagine this was some sort of 'gun blue' type solution.

Not wishing to be seen as the 'new boys' they all meekly complied. Fairly common in those circumstances I would imagine. I believe I have a photo of a KRRC man with black badge, red backing, black chinstrap buttons but GS brass buttons on his greatcoat.

Regards

Tocemma

Hello Tocemma, yes I think the gun paint is the most likely scenario, although the paint was (and still is) expensive and I imagine that the armourer sergant had to have his palm crossed with a few shekels (or beer) to permit its use for that purpose. In the past I have used the same method to blacken my badges, as unlike vehicle paint it did not flake off but was cohesive and enduring.