What nationality are these soldiers?

[Tinhat47]

This is a detail from a photo I came across this photo in Ross Burns' book 'The World War I Album.' He doesn't give any indication of what country these Lewis gunners are from, only that the photo is most likely staged rather than at the front. I have never seen helments like these -- they almost look like leather, and the goggles throw me off even more. Perhaps tank crew trainees?

[AFS SSU 69]

This is a detail from a photo I came across this photo in Ross Burns' book 'The World War I Album.' He doesn't give any indication of what country these Lewis gunners are from, only that the photo is most likely staged rather than at the front. I have never seen helments like these -- they almost look like leather, and the goggles throw me off even more. Perhaps tank crew trainees?

That is a curious photo. The helmets look to me like german style crash helmets as worn by pilots and motorcycle riders. The Lewis guns if you notice are missing the round drum magazines as well.

[cdr]

Could they be Italian armoured car crew ?

[Tinhat47]

I forgot to add this part -- the caption says it takes place in 1918 during the Second Battle of the Marne.

[centurion]

Captions can be wrong

Seeing the photo I'm minded of Soviet tank crews - there's a photo of a parade of Soviet heavy tanks (ex British) C 1924. The commander of the first tank has his head out of the hatch and he's wearing the same kind of helmet (which is I think typical of tankers helmets adopted by a number of countries in the 1920s)

[Tom W.]

From World War I: An Illustrated History, by Susanne Everett (London: Bison Books, Ltd., 1980), p. 38. The caption reads, "Lewis gunners of the BEF in position near the Marne. Their crash helmets and guns were brought up quickly by the rail line behind them."

[Tom W.]

A closer view of the men in the background seems to indicate British-style peaked service caps with stiffeners.

[Tinhat47]

The plot thickens!

I have to say though, that caption from that book sounds completely made up.

[shippingsteel]

Surely the photo has to show a group in training somewhere.? You would never expect to see a whole bunch (17+) of Lewis guns massed together in the lines like this.

Just one or two well placed shells would soon account for the entire MG unit I should think. Must admit the strange looking headgear is quite a mystery though.

My best (wild) guess is 'tank gunners' in training to the left and 'infantry gunners' in training to the right.?

Cheers, S>S

[Tom W.]

Surely the photo has to show a group in training somewhere.?

I would say it's a propaganda photo, since there are no ammunition drums on the guns.

[FROGSMILE]

I am wondering if they are motor machine gunners on motor cycles. The British Army was very slow in developing comfortable protective helmets for their armoured crew men and even in WW2 used only a barely modified version of the airborne forces helmet. However, they might well have used protective head gear for a fast moving motor cycle force intended to plug gaps with light weight machine guns that could act as force multipliers. The motorcycle helmet used in WW2 did not have the cushioning on the outside (it was inside instead), but perhaps these were prototype helmets where the buffer strips were fitted externally.

[centurion]

I am wondering if they are motor machine gunners on motor cycles. The British Army was very slow in developing comfortable protective helmets for their armoured crew men and even in WW2 used only a barely modified version of the airborne forces helmet. However, they might well have used protective head gear for a fast moving motor cycle force intended to plug gaps with light weight machine guns that could act as force multipliers. The motorcycle helmet used in WW2 did not have the cushioning on the outside (it was inside instead), but perhaps these were prototype helmets where the buffer strips were fitted externally.

Whilst most armies at some stage developed tank helmets only the Soviet Union (in the 1920s) developed ones with this style of external padding (and these remained in use until the 1960s and were also used by Warsaw Pact countries).

AFAIK there was no breakthrough plugging motor cycle unit armed with Lewis guns. This role was already more than adequately covered by motor cycle combinations armed with Vickers guns

As can be seen Brodies were worn. No such helmet was developed for British MC riders

[centurion]

See also

[FROGSMILE]

<br> Whilst most armies at some stage developed tank helmets only the Soviet Union (in the 1920s) developed ones with this style of external padding (and these remained in use until the 1960s and were also used by Warsaw Pact countries).<br>AFAIK there was no breakthrough plugging motor cycle unit armed with Lewis guns. This role was already more than adequately covered by  motor cycle combinations armed with Vickers guns<br><br>As can be seen Brodies were worn. No such helmet was developed for British MC riders<br>

Yes, I admit I had never seen such helmets before, and I am very familiar with Soviet crew helmets, having faced them for quite a few years across the inner German border. You might well be right and I am aware of the Vickers motor cycle combinations. I am just speculating really that a dismountable equivalent using Lewis Guns to get to any part of a break through quickly (very relevant in 1918) is not an impossible concept. I find it hard to believe that the original caption is complete rubbish and it clearly states BEF. The guns are Lewis and thus used by British and Imperial troops in great numbers (but not by the US or French), so it seems a plausible possibility that they are a quick reaction force of some kind equipped with great firepower to maximise their effect. If not motor cycle, or armour, but apparently British, then what else might they be.......aviators? It is significant that unlike in infantry usage there are not 5-men to a gun team (with 3 being used to carry spare magazines) which would seem to at least suggest that the gun was being carried on some kind of vehicle.

From the Western Front Association: "The strength of the Lewis guns at the battalion level rose to 36 by July 1918 and these guns played a vital role in the more mobile war of the Last 100 Days Campaign. Mobile: It was standard on British tanks and armoured cars and was even mounted on motorcycles".

Russian usage: "The Russian Empire purchased 10,000 Lewis Guns in 1917 from the British Government, and ordered another 10,000 weapons from Savage Arms in the US. The US Government was unwilling to supply the Tsarist Russian Government with the guns and there is some doubt as to whether they were actually delivered, although records indicate that 5,982 Savage weapons were delivered to Russia by 31 March 1917. The Lewis Guns supplied by Britain were dispatched to Russia in May 1917, but there is some confusion as to whether these were the Savage-made weapons being trans-shipped through the UK, or a separate batch of UK-produced units".

Could they be Portuguese, a large number of whom fought in the PEF in the British Sector throughout 1918? The men in the background without helmets do seem odd in 1918.

The plot continues to thicken !

[centurion]

Yes, I admit I had never seen such helmets before, and I am very familiar with Soviet crew helmets, having faced them for quite a few years across the inner German border. You might well be right and I am aware of the Vickers motor cycle combinations. I am just speculating really that a dismountable equivalent using Lewis Guns to get to any part of a break through quickly (very relevant in 1918) is not an impossible concept. I find it hard to believe that the original caption is complete rubbish and it clearly states BEF. The guns are Lewis and thus used by British and Imperial troops in great numbers (but not by the US or French), so it seems a plausible possibility that they are a quick reaction force of some kind equipped with great firepower to maximise their effect. If not motor cycle, or armour, but apparently British, then what else might they be....aviators?

NB. From the Western Front Association: "The strength of the Lewis guns at the battalion level rose to 36 by July 1918 and these guns played and vital role in the more mobile war of the Last 100 Days Campaign. Mobile: It was standard on British tanks and armoured cars and was even mounted on motorcycles".

The plot thickens !

Some American units did use Lewis guns - for example units on the Siberian Railway where American manned Lewis guns encountered 'Bolo' (Russian revolutionary) manned Lewis guns (the gun had been supplied to the Russians). However the US Marines also retained some of their Lewis guns. Belgium also used the Lewis. The French used large numbers of Lewis on aircraft

I do not find it difficult to believe the caption complete rubbish. For instance as has been pointed out none of the guns have magazines, the stuff about guns and crash helmets being rushed up by the railway is completely away with the fairies. Why not just bring up Brodies and if you're travelling by railway and why would the gunners not travel with their guns and have their helmets with them? Total piffle not to say balderdash.

The Lewis was only standard on Mk II, III and IV tanks The 1918 Mk V and V* used the Hotchkiss as did the Medium A (Whippet). The Lewis was not standard on British armoured cars - the Vickers was being able to provide sustained fire and the car providing the mobility. I would very much appreciate seeing details of Lewis armed motor cycles and there seems to be no record of a Lewis armed breakthrough plugging unit on motor bikes - as I said the Vickers armed combos filled this role very effectively(in any case given the need for a two man crew plus the gun and ammunition an effective motorcycle Lewis armed unit would also have to use combos (so no speed advantage) and if you have to do this it makes more sense to use the Vickers with its more sustained fire power any way. During the retreat during the March offensive the standard technique was for the combo to park so that the gun could be fired from the side car rearward, when the Germans got too close or threatened to out flank the combo would roar off to a new position and recommence firing. If a Lewis armed motor bike unit is more than speculation please provide some evidence.

The Lewis was an infantry weapon par excellence. However some dismounted tank crews did use them to support the infantry (and they also used the Hotchkiss) but those helmets do not look anything like any British helmet of the time. Photos of dismounted tankers in the combat area usually show them in Brodies.

[Tinhat47]

I found this photo on another site

On that site, it is identified as 'the very rare all leather anti crash flying helmet issued to the Italian Regia Aeronautica in the '30s.It was issued for training purposes till 1942 in the Caserta school. Generally it was worn on the classic skin leather or cloth flying helmet. To note that the same anti crash helmet has been issued to the tank forces prior to 1932.'

[FROGSMILE]

I found this photo on another site

On that site, it is identified as 'the very rare all leather anti crash flying helmet issued to the Italian Regia Aeronautica in the '30s.It was issued for training purposes till 1942 in the Caserta school. Generally it was worn on the classic skin leather or cloth flying helmet. To note that the same anti crash helmet has been issued to the tank forces prior to 1932.'

I think you have it Matt. The Italians initially used the Fiat-Revelli, which was modified for use in aircraft in 1915, although in the event its use was displaced by the two British models, the Vickers and Lewis guns, in 1917. It seems that after the disastrous defeat at Caporetta in November 1917, the Italians acquired some 2,000 Lewis guns.

It looks like the caption for the photo was based on the vague journalistic theory that if they are Lewis Guns in the picture then they must be being manned by British personnel!

[centurion]

So Italian tankers sometime between 1920 and 1932. Given that the Italian army in this period was almost exclusively equipped with the Fiat 3000 (a close copy of the Renault FT) none of which were fitted with Lewis guns one wonders what they are up to. Only one minor niggle - photos of Italian tank crews of the period do not show them wearing this type of helmet but either a soft kepi or a crash helmet with padding right around the brim but no padding across the crest.