"German Rifle" - Made in the USA?

[4thGordons]

I am rereading P.D.Orcutt's "The White Road of Mystery: The Note-book of an American Ambulancier" (1918 John Lane /Bodely Head)

Orcutt was a member of AFS Section XXXI serving in the vicinity of Bar-le-Duc and Verdun.

On p93/4 he says "Soldiers go up cheering wildly, singing and shouting. They return silent, tired, covered with mud, and reduced in numbers. German rifles, bayonets, caps, buttons, cartridges, and other odds and ends are offered for sale. In August a Poilu offered me a German rifle. I was examining it, and admiring the design, when I noticed the maker's name, --- the latest type of German rifle had been made in New Jersey, USA."

I understand these sorts of memoires often contain technical inaccuracies (people misremember, or non specialists describing complex processes that they do not always understand etc) however this seems rather specific.

Any ideas what he might be referring to?

I know the FRENCH had a number of rifles types produced in the US (07-15 Berthiers by Remington, Rolling Blocks by Remington) and that both Remington and Westinghouse made M1891 Nagant rifles (but as far as I know they are not marked New Jersey....but rather the Westinghouse rifles are marked New England) but I am struggling to resolve this diary account with any reasonable explanation.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Chris

[Gunner Bailey]

Chris

Could it have been a US Hunting rifle used for sniping? A private purchase or maybe a captured gun? It's surely feasible that an American officer took a hunting rifle for sniping and it was captured.

John

[4thGordons]

Chris

Could it have been a US Hunting rifle used for sniping? A private purchase or maybe a captured gun? It's surely feasible that an American officer took a hunting rifle for sniping and it was captured.

John

Hi John

This is indeed possible, hadn't thought of that (although I suspect not a US officer as this was 1917 but it might have been a private purchase/impressed item - either British or German)

Cheers

Chris

[centurion]

There were allegations, and an enquiry by US government into these, in early 1917 that the Germans had ordered large number of rifles which were being shipped under the cover of orders from Central and South American governments and with the connivance of Mexico. These were said to be stored in New Jersey. The intention was to arm the revolutionaries in Russia. At least one German American Socialist appears to have confessed but no guns were found. There was a report in the NYT

[Khaki]

If it was a (US) made rifle in German use as a private purchase sniping weapon, and the reference to New Jersey is accurate, then I would hazzard a guess that what he was reading on the rifle was the address of the arms dealer or a private arms maker. I am interested in the phrase "the latest type of german rifle" I feel the use of the word 'type' probably refers to a different action, maybe semi automatic. There must have been a significant departure from what the author would have seen on a regular basis. I concur that the rifle was probably a civilian rifle.

khaki

[centurion]

If it was a (US) made rifle in German use as a private purchase sniping weapon, and the reference to New Jersey is accurate, then I would hazzard a guess that what he was reading on the rifle was the address of the arms dealer or a private arms maker. I am interested in the phrase "the latest type of german rifle" I feel the use of the word 'type' probably refers to a different action, maybe semi automatic. There must have been a significant departure from what the author would have seen on a regular basis. I concur that the rifle was probably a civilian rifle.

khaki

Which raise the question of ammunition. Impressing single civilian rifles would not be much use unless compatible ammunition was available. If the rifle was purchased as a sniping rifle by a German soldier then he'd need a reasonable amount of ammo. The same applies if it were originally captured from the British or French.

[Khaki]

Let us presume that the rifle belonged to a German officer, Germany has a strong hunting tradition and I presume that arms/ammo dealer were in abundance, I don't think that non regulation ammo would have been a problem from available local sources, in fact the availability may have been greater due to the wars impact on hunting resulting in unsold ammunition . I am also confidant that Austria and Switzerland may also have been a source. If the rifle was being used as a pseudo military weapon (sniper) then the caliber was probably standard German military which would then preclude the semi-auto family.

khaki

[Pete1052]

I think the reference to New Jersey may have been erroneous. Off the top of my head I can't think of any major American armsmakers that were then there. Colt once had a facility in Paterson, NJ but that was in the 19th century. The marking could have been that of one of the big arms dealers operating out of New York City but that's only speculation on my part. Mauser designs were much emulated and the M1903 Springfield and various Arisaka designs were derivative of them.

[4thGordons]

I think the reference to New Jersey may have been erroneous. Off the top of my head I can't think of any major American armsmakers that were then there.

This had me flummoxed too.

New York...New Haven...New England -- yes, but not New Jersey.

Chris

[4thGordons]

There were allegations, and an enquiry by US government into these, in early 1917 that the Germans had ordered large number of rifles which were being shipped under the cover of orders from Central and South American governments and with the connivance of Mexico. These were said to be stored in New Jersey. The intention was to arm the revolutionaries in Russia. At least one German American Socialist appears to have confessed but no guns were found. There was a report in the NYT

Thanks for this - I will investigate.

Chris

FOUND IT: May 16th 1918

I wonder if this is related?

[Khaki]

This had me flummoxed too.

New York...New Haven...New England -- yes, but not New Jersey.

Chris

I don't think we should discount the accuracy of what he saw, it obviously made an impact on him, I would still bet that he saw a dealers address. It was very common for arms dealers to advertise their business on the weapon, if it was a special order hunting rifle such as a conversion or a custom built rifle I woud expect to see it. It is also possible, although not mentioned, that it was in a case or sack that was so marked.

khaki

[Pete1052]

I don't think we should discount the accuracy of what he saw, it obviously made an impact on him ...

Some things we can never know for sure. Khaki, although your posts in this thread make sense in a way they are all one assumption piled onto another, and then another after that, like a house of cards. We'll never know about this particular situation for certain.

[shippingsteel]

My first thought was to Hopkins & Allen who were producing Mausers in the shape of M1889 for the Belgians, out of Connecticut (probably not near NJ but definitely USA.?)

I understand that large quantities of these were subsequently captured and put to use by the Germans, they were quite similar to their normal rifles ie. Mausers, so no problem.

Personally I doubt the theory of 'hunting rifle' as supply of correct ammunition is always quoted as one of the main logistical problems of using different type weapons in the line.

While Hopkins & Allen may not have been based in NJ, they could have been using a shipping agent (middleman) who was located there, and whose name was on the weapon.?

Cheers, S>S

EDIT. Here is a LINK to some pics if anyone's interested. Yes they were Mausers and they were Made in the USA.!

[Khaki]

Some things we can never know for sure. Khaki, although your posts in this thread make sense in a way they are all one assumption piled onto another, and then another after that, like a house of cards. We'll never know about this particular situation for certain.

What makes any mystery interesting (to me at least) is to explore the possibilities, if we don't, it would be like saying "what does it matter anyway?".You are absolutely correct that we will never know this particular situation for sure and that also applies to thousands of WW1 posts. Like all responses you are free to accept or reject them as you see fit, but if we have to stay with only what's proven I don't think it would be much fun.

khaki

[Tom W.]

I think the reference to New Jersey may have been erroneous. Off the top of my head I can't think of any major American armsmakers that were then there. Colt once had a facility in Paterson, NJ but that was in the 19th century. The marking could have been that of one of the big arms dealers operating out of New York City but that's only speculation on my part. Mauser designs were much emulated and the M1903 Springfield and various Arisaka designs were derivative of them.

Remington had a plant in Hoboken, and the New Jersey Arms and Ordnance Company was based in Trenton.

[Pete1052]

Well maybe, could have been, or might have been. Tony E should feel free to cite this message of mine as a definitive reference on the matter.

[4thGordons]

Remington had a plant in Hoboken, and the New Jersey Arms and Ordnance Company was based in Trenton.

I think the Remington Plant manufactured ammunition rather than weapons as indicated by this article

I do not know anything about the other company and so will investigate.

It is quite clear that we will never KNOW as incontrovertible fact what was being discussed here. But there are nonetheless reasonable and less reasonable explanations it seems to me.

Chris

[Robert Dunlop]

P.D.Orcutt... says "Soldiers go up cheering wildly, singing and shouting..."

Chris, just a quick point of clarification please. Were the 'soldiers' French or American?

Robert

[4thGordons]

Chris, just a quick point of clarification please. Were the 'soldiers' French or American?

Robert

French - although this was after the US had declared war it was prior to the arrival of significant numbers of US troops. AFS Section XXXI was attached to the French 20th(?) Div (IIRC - I will have to check that)

Chris

[Robert Dunlop]

Thanks Chris.

Robert

[4thGordons]

You are welcome.

I checked and at the time SSU643 was indeed attached to the French 10 Corps, 20th Division.

operating IN THIS APPROXIMATE AREA(N.West of Verdun between Sivry, Germonville and Mort Homme.)

Chris

[shippingsteel]

I had another thought about the Hopkins & Allen made Mausers that went to Belgium. If indeed this is what the writer is referring, what would the 'maker mark' look like.?

I checked some photos of the receivers that were marked with the makers 'crest' and it appears as follows :-

Hopkins and Allen Arms Co.

Norwich.Conn.USA

Depending on where the writer originated from (or if he was otherwise geographically challenged) he could have mistaken the location of Norwich as being in NJ.?

After consulting my maps it would appear that they are not that terribly far apart. Sometimes these memoirs need to be looked at figuratively, rather than just literally.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Orcutt was a Harvard educated OTC man volunteering in the AFS

I think it unlikely that he would make this mistake.

Regarding the Belgian Mausers - although it is of course a possibility, I would have thought it unlikely that large numbers of US (or UK) produced Mausers would have been captured, It was my understanding these were produced during the war to replace the large numbers captured in the initial invasion of Belgium.

The White Road of Mystery is available in full on the excellent AFS site(Go to library/units Section XXXI)

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Regarding the Belgian Mausers - although it is of course a possibility, I would have thought it unlikely that large numbers of US (or UK) produced Mausers would have been captured, It was my understanding these were produced during the war to replace the large numbers captured in the initial invasion of Belgium.

Enemy weapons were 'captured' or otherwise acquired almost on a daily basis during the war. Whenever an attack was beaten off, a trench overrun or even during a short term 'trench-raid' there were always weapons lying around to be picked up. I believe the term used was "salvage". The British were relatively well equipped with weapons so had little use for the German rifles, however the Germans were often short of rifles and as such made use of whatever they could get their hands on. I have seen references to French, Russian, Belgian weapons being used - even SMLE's and Ross rifles, the latter apparently prized for use in the sniping role.

PS. It was after the initial invasion of Belgium that the contract for rifles was placed with Hopkins & Allen, however "about 8,000 rifles had been delivered by 1916".

It is correct that the vast majority of these rifles were never delivered, the contract terms broke down (payment was not received) putting H&A into financial difficulty, eventually taken over by the Marlin Rockwell company who continued the production. The bulk of these remained in store in the US, quite possibly the rifles referred to in Centurion's earlier post. (finally shipped Sept.1918)

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

, however the Germans were often short of rifles and as such made use of whatever they could get their hands on. I have seen references to French, Russian, Belgian weapons being used - even SMLE's and Ross rifles, the latter apparently prized for use in the sniping role.

I know you distain documentary evidence but I would be very interested in anything to support these contentions

While it is absolutely accurate that early on (14-15)the Germans were short of rifles, it is my understanding that by 1917 Mauser production was not only sufficient to supply they German forces but was sufficient to allow significant exports of GEW 98s (to Turkey for example)

There is a very big difference between "salvaging" weapons and capturing suffficient numbers to allow entire units to be equipped with them. In the conquest of Belgium and several Russian fortresses very significant numbers of rifles were taken, but beyond this - I cannot think of obvious mass captures (perhaps Gallipoli?) Where captured rifles were used, it is my understanding they were most frequently used outside the front line (naval units with Nagants, POW guard units etc) because of the ammmuntion supply issue. Machine guns were utilized and ammunition produced, it would be interesting to hear if anyone knows if Belgian calibre ammunition was produced by the Germans?

Beyond this, I would be very interested indeed in any evidence that Ross rifles were used by the Central Powers for sniping (or in any role) as this is something I have not heard of.

Cheers

Chris