mines (land)

[Khaki]

I have read and heard that during the German retreat of 1917/18, that road intersections were mined. What were these? were they buried artillery shells or was there actual anti personnel/vehicle mines at that time?

khaki

[centurion]

I have read and heard that during the German retreat of 1917/18, that road intersections were mined. What were these? were they buried artillery shells or was there actual anti personnel/vehicle mines at that time?

khaki

Whilst booby traps were common in WW1 and anti tank mines used in some numbers in 1918 anti personnel mines were not used in Europe until WW2. What is the source of this information?

BTW what German retreat 1917/18? Do you mean the withdrawal to the Hindenburg line after the Somme or the retreat after Amiens in late 1918?

[bob lembke]

I have read and heard that during the German retreat of 1917/18, that road intersections were mined. What were these? were they buried artillery shells or was there actual anti personnel/vehicle mines at that time?

khaki

A friend is a leading US authority on mine warfare, and I am always looking for references to mine (not underground) warfare in WW I, and rarely find references to same.

Recently was reading of a German infantry assault on a French fort in 1914, and it briefly mentioned that the Germans ran into 'mines', from the context seemingly tread mines. But no detail.

At Gallipoli the Turks and Germans were cut off from Germany, and German experts in Turkey were "scrounging" mightily to find any usable materiel. They found some hopelessly old torpedo warheads not usable in a naval context (Whitehead had a factory in Turkey in the 1880's; visit the Naval Museum in Istanbul if you want to see bunches of old torpedoes.), and they converted them to some form of land mines and sent them to Gallipoli. I have never read a direct reference to their going off, but Allied sources often refer to the explosion of large Turkish shells at Gallipoli in calibers that the Turks did not have, perhaps these were mines. In that era there was the use of "observation mines", mines who were observed in a tactical situation and set off at the right moment by electricity. These were used in a naval context, for example at Belgrade defending the Danube against Austrian river monitors.

My father described a lot of the booby trap and time mines set behind during the retreat to the Hindenburg Line in 1917.

Bob Lembke

[truthergw]

There were certainly many explosions at town centres and main road intersections. Given that a mine was thought of as being an underground chamber packed with explosives, then the explosions could well have been described as mines. There is a very famous photo of one town centre with an enormous crater where the main roads had crossed. These explosions were usually detonated by German engineers as soon as they were set but a few were left on time fuse.

[Tunesmith]

Below is a sketch map that’s appended to a British Army war diary, which shows details of the British final defences during the evacuation at Suvla in December 1915. As you can see, it marks out numerous minefields.

These were evidently anti-personnel mines but I’ve never been unable to find out anything about them - whether they were ad hoc devices or early manufactured landmines. If they were manufactured devices, I’ve often wondered why land-mines were not widely used until the next war.

Earlier at Suvla Bay the Turks had laid land-mines on and behind the beaches, which caused numerous casualties when the British came ashore in August. Bob suggests the Turks ingeniously employed adapted torpedoes but an extract from a British officer’s letter written at the time may suggest otherwise:

“...On my way over the hill, I found a party of engineers busy with a small square hole in the ground.

It appeared it was a land mine. A devilish contraption. Any poor fellow treading on it made an electrical contact that exploded a pound of gelignite. A few yards further on there was evidence of their awful effects.

The poor chap's rifle was an extraordinary sight. The woodwork round the barrel had gone with most of the stock. The barrel itself was bent almost double. The less said about what remained of the man himself the better…’

[centurion]

I did say in Europe (and I wouldn't count Gallipoli as in the European theatre). Anti personnel mines were used in China and Japan certainly in the 19th Century and possibly the 18th (using a flint and ratchet to set them off) and in the ACW. Britain used them in South Africa to deny Boer Commandos access to fords (but they had the same problem as with all AP mines - they can't tell innocent civilian from combatant). Possibly this was the source of mines used at Gallipoli. Anti tamper devices appear to have sometimes been used on wire and to discourage AT mine lifting on the WF.

[Khaki]

What I was curious about was whether roads being mined simply meant that a crater had been blown, or the more modern concept of a 'mine'. were mines apart from naval ones manufactured or were they field improvisation.? I an sure the reference made was to 1918 Amiens, but taking into account the responses similar actions obviously occurred in the withdrawal (retreat) to the Hindenburg Line.

khaki

[Robert Dunlop]

Tom has got it spot on. German engineers blew enormous craters in key roads and intersections. The goal was to disrupt the Allied follow-up, both directly and by disrupting logistic supplies. Cratering was also carried out in other locations, and at other times, especially where the risk of tanks was considered high. The appearance was of a mine crater, where an underground shaft was dug under the enemy trenches and then an explosion was detonated.

Delayed explosive devices were planted in buildings, alongside railways, and in other key locations. These were not mines, in the sense of contact anti-personnel or anti-vehicle mines.

Robert

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi all,

I am pretty sure that this is a mine crater, rather than aircraft or heavy artillery, but as always it is hard to be sure. It was taken by my grandfather in 1918, most likely in September 1918 on the advance to the Hindenburg Line, ending up at Bony.

Comments welcome, particularly if someone knows the site.

Cheers,

Bill

[centurion]

Hi all,

I am pretty sure that this is a mine crater, rather than aircraft or heavy artillery, but as always it is hard to be sure. It was taken by my grandfather in 1918, most likely in September 1918 on the advance to the Hindenburg Line, ending up at Bony.

Comments welcome, particularly if someone knows the site.

Cheers,

Bill

What ever its a pretty big hole - if its an Anti Tank mine its definitely overkill. Some anti tank mines were encountered (both German and friendly) but from photos the resulting holes were much smaller. Possibly the result of Allied heavy artillery?

[Robert Dunlop]

Thanks Bill. Is the photograph complete or have you shown a piece of the whole thing?

Robert

[Gunner Bailey]

Don't forget that Toffee Apple mortar bombs were buried det up to act as land mines. I'd not heard of purpose built land mines in a WW1 context. I'll have to do some 'digging'!

John

Hi all,

I am pretty sure that this is a mine crater, rather than aircraft or heavy artillery, but as always it is hard to be sure. It was taken by my grandfather in 1918, most likely in September 1918 on the advance to the Hindenburg Line, ending up at Bony.

Comments welcome, particularly if someone knows the site.

Cheers,

Bill

I would say that is a Mine in the sense a tunnel was dug and explosives placed under ground. The normal context of a WW1 mine. Great photo.

John

[bob lembke]

Until a month or two ago I thought that my father was in the work party that constructed the mine placed in the basement of the city hall of Bapaume in 1917. He gave me a lot of technical information about it about 50-55 years ago, and a few weeks ago the French put a plaque on the rebuilt city hall and I was invited to the ceremony. But I carefully went over my father's military records and letters and I realized that he almost certainly could not have been there. But the mystery remains; how did my father have that specialized information? He described in detail the construction of the fuze, and a year ago my mine warfare friend sent me a blueprint of the standard German fuze for such efforts, and it was made exactly like the fuze my father described in the 1950's, and the time delay was exactly the period that my father described. (The time delay could not be adjusted or reset, due to the design.)

Interestingly, despite a German effort to throw the Allies off further suspicion, the Aussies who took over the area did not move a HQ or a barracks into the large structure, out of suspicion of a booby-trap; instead (to my amusement) they moved the Red Cross, or some similar organization, in, instead.

My father said that the charge of the bomb was 6 metric tons, or 13,224 lbs of dynamite.

As to Gallipoli, I am assuming that the Turks only had a few of the large torpedo warhead mines. The German efforts to manufacture munitions and some arms for the Turks, despite being cut off from Germany, was quite an effort. But they could not make effective artillery ammunition. The shells fired, but generally did not explode at the other end. Efforts were even made to fly fuzes in from Germany or Austria. Also, the shells were generally cast iron, not steel, and when shells did explode the iron shattered into fragments sort of like sand, not the razor-sharp shards from steel shells, so they were not that dangerous.

Bob Lembke

[WhiteStarLine]

Thanks Bill. Is the photograph complete or have you shown a piece of the whole thing?

Robert

Robert, it is the complete photo. Many of the photos have captions, but guess what - he glued them into the photo album!!! The Australian War Memorial have advised me that they use specialist conservators who can prise the photo off, read it then re-glue. I'll find one of these in due course.

Here is a complete one, showing another possible crater-candidate, possibly taken around Roisel or the Hindenburg Line itself in September 1918. The Aussie on the left is a signaller, with a signaller's brassard clearly visible. Identification of the British would aid finding a date, as the unit war diary records flanking units.

[Robert Dunlop]

Bill, another very interesting photo. All the very best with the conservation efforts. I bet someone from the Forum can help narrow down the possibilities for the other soldiers.

Robert

[bob lembke]

Robert, it is the complete photo. Many of the photos have captions, but guess what - he glued them into the photo album!!! The Australian War Memorial have advised me that they use specialist conservators who can prise the photo off, read it then re-glue. I'll find one of these in due course.

Please, don't reglue photos into the album. There are corners or other archival means of attachment. Get a good archival catalog for ideas. A really good firm is the US "Light Impressions"; they might have an on-line catalog.

An old album probably has pages loaded with acids or other bad stuff.

Bob Lembke

Robert, it is the complete photo. Many of the photos have captions, but guess what - he glued them into the photo album!!! The Australian War Memorial have advised me that they use specialist conservators who can prise the photo off, read it then re-glue. I'll find one of these in due course.

Here is a complete one, showing another possible crater-candidate, possibly taken around Roisel or the Hindenburg Line itself in September 1918. The Aussie on the left is a signaller, with a signaller's brassard clearly visible. Identification of the British would aid finding a date, as the unit war diary records flanking units.

[centurion]

Here is a complete one, showing another possible crater-candidate, possibly taken around Roisel or the Hindenburg Line itself in September 1918. The Aussie on the left is a signaller, with a signaller's brassard clearly visible. Identification of the British would aid finding a date, as the unit war diary records flanking units.

Looks like one of the larger German bombs

The large British one was more angular (and looked as if it was made out of Mechano). Odd thing though painting bombs and rockets in white sections was a WW2 practice used on test ranges (so observers could tell if it was rotating). Wouldn't have expected this in the environment in which the photo is taken.