Unknown Shoulder Insignia

[AdrianBruce]

Along with my Grandpa's medals came these two shoulder insignia (see attachment). Family legend said they were taken off a German soldier - but legends can grow.

The other day I saw the recent picture of a German NCO's tunic and realised the colour and style were not that different. So, I don't know how difficult it is, but can anyone identify these insignia? Or point me towards a source that might?

I don't even know if they came from the same uniform. Will the number denote a regiment or similar, rather than the individual? Any clues about the A1 and the crown???

All thoughts gratefully accepted - particularly if it confirms a family legend!

[Krithia]

Definately WW1 Imperial German.

The one on the left is Inf Regiment 329, and the one on the right is Garde Grenadier Regt 1.

Hope this helps a little.

[BeppoSapone]

Along with my Grandpa's medals came these two shoulder insignia (see attachment). Family legend said they were taken off a German soldier - but legends can grow.

The other day I saw the recent picture of a German NCO's tunic and realised the colour and style were not that different. So, I don't know how difficult it is, but can anyone identify these insignia? Or point me towards a source that might?

I don't even know if they came from the same uniform. Will the number denote a regiment or similar, rather than the individual? Any clues about the A1 and the crown???

All thoughts gratefully accepted - particularly if it confirms a family legend!

Now the interesting bit. What was your grandfathers unit?

Someone here may know if, and when, and where, these German units were in the line opposite!

[P.B.]

Definately WW1 Imperial German.

The one on the left is Inf Regiment 329, and the one on the right is Garde Grenadier Regt 1.

Hope this helps a little.

Absolutely spot on....to elaborate a little, some German units wore simple numbers on their shoulder straps to identify the regiment, whilst others wore a cypher or monogram, usually these were "senior" regiments and the cypher would be associated with their one time honoury Colonel-in-Chiefs. The full title of Garde Grenadier Regt Nr 1 was the Kaiser Alexander Garde-Grenadier Regt Nr 1, and the device on the shoulder board is the onetime Kaiser Alexander's royal cypher.

To complicate matters further, Reserve Regiments (in most cases) weren't allowed to wear the cypher worn by the regular formation, for example Baden Grenadier Regt 110 wore a crowned "W" device, but Reserve Infantry Regiment 110 simply wore the numbers "110". And you thought British cap badges were complicated......

Hope this has been of some interest, all the best

Paul.

[AdrianBruce]

Thanks very much for that... Nice to know the story was true. I did wonder if the insignia came from 2 different soldiers.

FYI... Grandpa served with A Battery, 86th Brigade, RFA. At least, that's the evidence we have, nicely backed up by one of Chris Baker's reports.

[Guest Chip Minx]

These two German shoulder straps are for enlisted men and are the 1915 pattern. The chances that they were worn by the same man are about nil. The 329.I.R. served on the Eastern front from its formation in 1915 until April of 1918, when it showed up on the Western front for the first time. It held quiet sectors except for a stint at Scarpe during August. The 329th was shipped off to Estonia in early September, so its contact with the enemy on the Western front encompassed only about four months. Though this regiment and the 1.Garde Grenadier Rgt. were in the Scarpe area during 1918, these straps may have been gotten at different times at different places.

Judging from the condition of both straps, they were either never worn or were taken from uniforms of newly clad troops. They are 100% original.

Of the some 57 model 1915 German infantry shoulder straps that bore a royal cypher or device (crowns, etc.) the 1.Garde Grenadier Regiment is one of the more common to find. My guess is that the reason for this is that the regiment was so heavily engaged throughout the war (primarily on the Western front) that it had an unusually high troop turnover.

Chip

[P.B.]

Chip

Stunning display of shoulder straps there! Have you ever visited the Imperial War Museum in London? On display there is a huge board, on which are gathered scores of German shoulder straps collected by a British Intelligence Officer during the period of the great Allied advance of late 1918. The quantity is bewildering, and they are grouped according to division. I'll hunt out some photos over the next week and post them.

Without doubt, the photo you posted shows one of the best collections of cyphered straps I've seen in private hands, so thanks for sharing them.

All the best

Paul.

[Joe Sweeney]

Hello Chip,

In looking through your straps one appears to be to the 63rd IR.

If so at your leasure could you scan a better copy and post.

Thanks.

Joe Sweeney

[Guest Chip Minx]

Sorry, just getting back you your questions. First, yes, I have seen the shoulder strap collection on display at the Imperial War Museum. I have several photos of it. It is a very important piece as it has frozen in time the unit compositions of the various divisions encountered. Of special interest is the grouping from the Garde Kav.Division, which by that date was being used as infantry (Schützen). There is a mixture of the "mounted" shoulder straps and the new "Schützen" pattern.

The picture of my collection of model 1915 cyphered shoulder straps is just a small part of my shoulder strap collection and only shows the cyphers of the regiments that I could fit into the frame. There are quite a few more.

The 63.I.R. example was approved in 1917 and the title of the regiment was officially changed, due to the death of Franz Josef, who had been the regimental "Chef" or honorary colonel. The cypher, that of Karl, the new Austrian emperor, features the crowns of the dual monarchy. The yellow strip of cloth on the bottom was a an unofficial field designation for the regiment. All of the units of the 12.Division wore a color strip on their shoulder straps. Attached is a picture of three examples from the division that are in my colletion. The strip of the 23.I.R. is red and that of the 15.Krankenträger Komp. (stretcher bearers) is faded green.

Chip

[Joe Sweeney]

Chip,

Thanks for posting the strap photo. Much appreciated. I've done quite a bit of research on the 63rd/12th Div. I've seen photocopies of straps and diagrams of the cypher strap but never a photo thanks.

Joe

[Guest Chip Minx]

Joe,

I have had four or five of them over the years, but this is the only one that still retained the cloth strip. They were just tacked on, so most have long been lost. What I would really like to find is a period photo that clearly shows it being worn. The search continues....

Let me know if there is any other German insignia that you have interest in. I have examples of just about everything with the exception of the Flammenwerfer patch and a few of the really rare ones. When it comes to shoulder insignia, there is not much that I cannot show you.

Best regards,

Chip