Private with Corporal's Stripes

[Carrie191]

My grandfather Albert Dier was in the 3rd Royal Sussex reg before the Great War and then served in the Royal Engineers and then the Highlanders from 1914 to 1919. I have his papers from before the war but cannot find any apart from medal rolls after 1914. My problem is that he is always referred to as a Private or Pioneer but I have a photograph of him in uniform, I think taken in France as it is on a Carte Postale, in which he has 2 stripes on his upper left arm. This has been bugging me for a long time and I would love to find out why he would have Corporal's stripes although he wasn't a Corporal.

[centurion]

Possible reasons

1] He was a corporal sometime post 1914 but due to lack of paperwork there is no surviving record

2] He was appointed temporary corporal but got 'busted' not long afterwards

3] The stripes are good conduct stripes (in which case the chevron should be inverted as below)

[Piorun]

Certainly, his medals were issued to him as a Private. Centurion's explanations are the only logical ones - unless the photo is post-war after he had achieved promotion, before he was discharged, and before it was worth noting on his MIC. Antony

[Carrie191]

Thanks to Centurian and Piorun for your input. I have Albert's discharge certificate for 1919 on which he is a private. In the photo his cap badge is of the Royal Sussex and he ended up in the Highlanders so it must have been fairly early on. Was it a frequent occurence to have a temporary period as a higher rank? The reason this concerns me is that it throws a little doubt on the identity of the soldier in the picture. My mother thought it was her father so it is unlikely to have been anyone else - but he did have a brother George, almost the same age, whose papers I also cannot find.

[Steven Broomfield]

Can you post the picture? That would certainly solve the problem of the stripes, and might also manage to date the picture to an extent.

There were several "Highlanders" (I can think of four Regular regiments using the title in their names, plus the Black Watch, and there were several territorial Highland battalions), so if we can narrow that down it might help.

If he was in the 3rd R Sussex, that was a Special reserve battalion, so he may well have been embodied on the outbreak of war, and would very likely have been cross-posted. As for having rank and then losing it - he might have been a naughty boy at some point!

[dundeesown]

It has to be this lad Albert E Dier 8813 R.S.R,283007&126020 ( Pioneer.) R.E. and 313013 Royal Highlanders.His Medal Card and his date of entry has him in the 2nd Royal Sussex Regiment in 1914 not The Black Watch.( Royal Highlanders.)

Gary.

[Carrie191]

If Albert had been "busted" would he still have been recorded as being of good conduct at the end of the war? I will endeavour to attach the picture.

[centurion]

I thought your OP said you had no papers after 1914?

A temporary corporal would often be a try out to see if the man was suited to the rank. If not (and he might be the one to decide this) the rank could be removed without any need for any great fuss and without any adverse effect on the man's record.

[Steven Broomfield]

And the photograph shows two Corporals of the Royal Sussex Regiment. I'm no expert, but it has the feel of a photo taken earlier, rather than later, in the war.

[Piorun]

It has the feel of a field photograph. The men's kit is not in parade ground order, boots are filthy, etc. However, the background appears to be a photographer's drop while the floor seems to be authentic cobbled paving (although the "seam" just in front of the chair legs and the completely different cobbling is puzzling). To me, given that this (if the photograph is him) must be early on, judging by his service history as evidenced by the MIC, the only logical explanation is that he was busted for a fairly serious matter that prevented him ever regaining the stripes. Antony

[centurion]

It has the feel of a field photograph. The men's kit is not in parade ground order, boots are filthy, etc. However, the background appears to be a photographer's drop while the floor seems to be authentic cobbled paving (although the "seam" just in front of the chair legs and the completely different cobbling is puzzling). To me, given that this (if the photograph is him) must be early on, judging by his service history as evidenced by the MIC, the only logical explanation is that he was busted for a fairly serious matter that prevented him ever regaining the stripes. Antony

Not cobbles - bricks or perhaps rough tiles I think the seam is where part of the floor has been dug up (perhaps for drain repairs for example) and relayed with newer bricks. It has a rural feel as does what furniture is showing. Perhaps an enterprising village photographer with a makeshift studio?

[Piorun]

Agreed. A

[centurion]

Has someone done something to the original negative? The standing man's lower right leg appears to be missing?

[sw63]

I can see toe & heel of right boot behind left leg - I think it's just the angle. Standing man has economy tunic?

Simon

[Carrie191]

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this. I feel a bit out of my depth here. I don't have any records that relate to Albert's experience during the war but do have original documents for his attestation in 1907 to the 2nd Royal Sussex, his transfer to the Reserve in 1912 and then his discharge cert. of Sep 1919, from the Royal Highlanders in which his character is stated to be "Very Good". The only document between 1912 and 1919 is his medal card which indicates that he was one of the first into the war, as a professional soldier, with the usual 3 medals. Because there are no dates anywhere for transfer between the regiments I believe there is no way I can track his progress. Can someone tell me if this is correct? It was always understood in the family that he was in the Black Watch although this was never really discussed and he died in 1946, having always suffered from ill-health. I don't think I am going to solve the riddle of the Corporal's stripes

[Piorun]

Has someone done something to the original negative? The standing man's lower right leg appears to be missing?

He was footloose and fancy free. Antony

[wainfleet]

Carolyn

It's a wartime photo. They are wearing the "simplified" jacket introduced in late 1914 for speed of production and not seen much after 1916. Do you know which one he is? It is surprisingly common for members to find that a photo they thought was of their relative must be someone else, one of his friends perhaps. [Edit: I've just reread the thread and seen the end of your post 4!]

Temporary or Acting rank may be given for a number of reasons and may not show up on the MIC or the medals. The lack of documentation is absolutely no indicator of disgrace or unsuitability for promotion. Even being "busted" is not necessarily a dishonourable thing. My grandfather was courtmartialled and reduced from Sergeant to Private for refusing to obey an order that would have needlessly cost lives. I'll always honour him for that, and anyway it didn't stop him from being commissioned at the end of the war.

Keep worrying away at this and you may get somewhere!

Best wishes,

W.

[Stebie9173]

I think the accent on "being busted" is a bit misleading. A man could be an acting Corporal, and you also found acting lance-Corporals. Both these appointments, if given on the leaving of the unit of the previous holder of the appointment, could be removed once the previous holder returned, and issues of seniority could mean that other Corporals could return to the unit and the appointments being shuffled around, the lowest seniority acting Corporal ending up back at his old rank. I have seen quite a few instances of this happening in records.

Also, the British War Medal and Victory Medal Rolls should show the final substantive (permanent) rank. I have seen dozens of examples of men who went overseas as lance-corporals who "apparently" ended up as Privates. These men have nearly always not been "busted". Assuming that they have means there are probably several hundred thousand busted Lance-Corporals on the Rolls. Records back up the retention of the appointment, where I have seen them. Sorry to sound grumpy (I have a cold), but assuming they have been busted is just wrong.

So, I never assume a man has been "busted" - quite the opposite in fact.

The criteria for a man in a leadership position in the Royal Engineers probably had quite different criteria to an infantryman. Just because you could lead a section of infantry, you were not necessarily the perfect choice for leading a specialist team of Sappers and Pioneers - I suspect leadership appointments came as much from technical knowledge as from force of personality.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Rank issues aside, I believe that he was posted to the Railway Department when he was transferred to Royal Engineers (his 283007 number would have been a "standard" R.E. number whilst his 126020 should be a WR/ number, i.e WR/126020). The transfer likely occured in the latter part of 1917.

His 313013 number seems to suggest that he was part of a group of men transferred in France from the Royal Engineers to the 1/7th Battalion of the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) on 1st September 1918.

Steve.

[FROGSMILE]

If one reviews the information gleaned so far it is clear that he enlisted as a Regular in the Royal Sussex Regt in 1907 and was posted to the 2nd of the two Regular battalions where he served until 1912 and the completion of his 5 year engagement, at which point he was transferred to the Reserve, as was usual since the Haldane Reforms (which required 5 years with the Colours and 7 years with the Reserve). During his time in the 2nd battalion he seems to have been trained as Pioneer. This training was (and still is) conducted for the infantry by the Royal Engineers.

In 1914 he was recalled from the Reserve and, as was usual, went to the 3rd Special Reserve battalion before being sent as part of a draft to the 2nd battalion and sent to France, probably as a battle casualty replacement following the Mons retreat and Marne battles. As a Reservist with some experience it is quite likely that he was promoted quite quickly to replace the heavy loss in NCOs that almost all battalions of the BEF suffered. It seems likely to me that he was promoted to substantive Lance Corporal and by the Spring of 1915 was appointed an Acting Corporal, when the photo with the simplified jacket seems likely to have been taken.

If he were a substantive Corporal King's Regulations would require a Brigadier to reduce him to the ranks, but as a substantive Lance Corporal (Acting Corporal) his own Commanding Officer could reduce him without reference to higher formation (Brigade). He must have had a regimental entry (been disciplined by his CO) because when disembodied in 1919 his character was deemed "Very Good". Had he no regimental entries (for disciplinary infringements) it would have been "Exemplary".

We know that he ended up in the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) so I surmise that he was perhaps wounded at some point (maybe Loos or the Somme) and returned to the UK for recovery. On return to France after rehabilitation he perhaps moved to the RE as a result of medical downgrading after wounding and on the basis of whatever skill he learned as a pioneer when serving with the Royal Sussex Regt. Later on the dire need for infantrymen after the March 1918 offensive led to all the Support Arms and Corps being trawled for men suitable as transferees to the infantry. Many men were moved across to the infantry at that time and an RE man with previous infantry experience who was now deemed medically fit would have been a prime candidate. It is in this way that I suspect he found himself in the Black Watch, where he must have remained until the end of the war.