Uniform identification.

[gpsmith]

Hi all,

First post here and hoping for some help. Currently doing a family tree and have been given some pictures from my wifes side of the family. I have almost no information about the gentleman pictured apart from his name is George Smith and the pic is WW1 era.

Any help gratefully recieved.

Gary.

[john gregory]

Can you enlarge the collar so that the badges can be seen then someone will be along to identify them. JG

[gpsmith]

Can you enlarge the collar so that the badges can be seen then someone will be along to identify them. JG

Hope this is better.

Gary

[FROGSMILE]

Hope this is better.

Gary

He is a private soldier in the 1912 pattern full dress uniform of the Bedfordshire Regiment. Facings (collar and cuffs) are white for an English Line Regiment and he is wearing the collar badge of a Hart and on his shoulder straps is the brass title 'BEDFORD'. He has the waist belt from the Slade Wallace equipment that was used for Parade and Walking out Dress and which is fastened by the Union Locket (buckle) embossed on the circlet part with the words DIEU ET MON DROIT.

The two 'Regular' Army battalions were the 1st and 2nd, one usually overseas and one at home. The 4th battalion was the old 'Militia' battalion and formed an 'Extra Reserve'' unit. The 5th battalion was a 'Territorial Force' unit of part time soldiers. The 6th, 7th and 8th battalions were war raised 'Service' battalions for the duration of the war.

The man in your photograph is almost certainly a Regular although he might also be a Territorial.

You can find out more at this excellent link: http://www.bedfordre...s1915diary.html

[gpsmith]

He is a private soldier in the 1912 pattern full dress uniform of the Bedfordshire Regiment. Facings (collar and cuffs) are white for an English Line Regiment and he is wearing the collar badge of a Hart and on his shoulder straps is the brass title 'BEDFORD'. He has the waist belt from the Slade Wallace equipment that was used for Parade and Walking out Dress and which is fastened by the Union Locket (buckle) embossed on the circlet part with the words DIEU ET MON DROIT.

The two 'Regular' Army battalions were the 1st and 2nd, one usually overseas and one at home. The 4th battalion was the old 'Militia' battalion and formed an 'Extra Reserve'' unit. The 5th battalion was a 'Territorial Force' unit of part time soldiers. The 6th, 7th and 8th battalions were war raised 'Service' battalions for the duration of the war.

The man in your photograph is almost certainly a Regular although he might also be a Territorial.

You can find out more at this excellent link: http://www.bedfordre...s1915diary.html

Thanks for that you have been most helpfull. I hope I wont be pushing my luck if I post a couple more pictures looking for the same kind of help.

[Staffsyeoman]

I'm intrigued by the fact that his right collar badge is facing the 'wrong' way, i.e. to the rear.

[steve fuller]

Hi Gary

If you are not already sitting in my inbox waiting for a reply, drop George's info on here and I will see what I can add that is useful. If you do not have a service number or such, anything such as whether he survived, where he was from or when he was born would be useful to ID which of the 20 or so George Smith's who served in the Bedfords he was! Joking aside, if he was a pre war Regular, I only have a few to choose from so we should be able to tie him down one way or another ...

Steve

[gpsmith]

Hi Gary

If you are not already sitting in my inbox waiting for a reply, drop George's info on here and I will see what I can add that is useful. If you do not have a service number or such, anything such as whether he survived, where he was from or when he was born would be useful to ID which of the 20 or so George Smith's who served in the Bedfords he was! Joking aside, if he was a pre war Regular, I only have a few to choose from so we should be able to tie him down one way or another ...

Steve

Thanks Steve,

To be honest I have very little info on him, he was one of four brothers who all served in WW1 and who all survived.

I have another pic which shows him with corporals stripes on his right arm.

I know he also had another couple of brothers who were too young for service in the war.

The family as far as i can tell was from Luton.

Gary.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for that you have been most helpfull. I hope I wont be pushing my luck if I post a couple more pictures looking for the same kind of help.

Please do post more, it is always interesting to help with identification.

[gpsmith]

A few more pics im trying to work through.

[gpsmith]

Same guy, different picture.

Closer view of head and shoulders.

Picture on the right, All I know for this one is his surname is Birt.

[gpsmith]

Last but not least, at least for now. Jack Smith.

[FROGSMILE]

Last but not least, at least for now. Jack Smith.

Jack Smith is a private in a Fusilier Regt, but it is not possible to tell which one from the angle of the photo. At the start of the war almost all the Fusilier Regts were using a standard grenade badge on their shoulder straps, commonly known as the 'universal pattern grenade', and beneath it a brass title in block letters to indicate which regiment. These latter included RF for Royal Fusiliers, NF for Northumberland Fusiliers, LF for Lancashire Fusiliers, and so on, just as you can see for my own 'avatar' on this site. You can see this 2-piece badge on his shoulders, but it is not clear which one it is. Another slightly unusual factor is that he is wearing a second pair of 'universal grenades' as collar badges, which only a very few fusilier battalions chose to do until after the war, when more started to follow that practice. Knowing where Jack came from would give a clue to which fusilier unit he is in, but it would not be definitive because he could have been sent to any unit, irrespective of geographical ties, as a reinforcement.

[FROGSMILE]

A few more pics im trying to work through.

This young man is a trooper in a Territorial Force (TF) Yeomanry Regt, possibly the 2nd County of London (Westminster Dragoons) Yeomanry. The picture was probably taken at the beginning of, or just before the war, as he is wearing an Imperial Service Tablet on his right chest to indicate that he has volunteered to serve overseas "in the defence of the Empire", something that was not obligatory for TF soldiers, who were originally raised to defend the homeland only.

As a mounted man he is equipped with a riding whip, spurs and a full set of 1903 bandolier equipment comprising 2 ammunition pouches on his waist belt and a bandolier across his chest.

1/2nd County of London Yeomanry

This is the original, 'first line' regiment

September 1914 : moved to Egypt.

19 January 1915 : placed under command of Yeomanry Mounted Brigade.

August 1915 : dismounted and moved to Gallipoli. Brigade placed under orders of 2nd Mounted Division and renamed 5th Mounted Brigade.

December 1915 : returned to Egypt and remounted. Left the Division.

April 1916 : under orders of 6th Mounted Brigade in Western Frontier Force.

January 1917: splits up. RHQ and C squadron to Northern Suez Canal Defences; A Squadron to 53rd (Welsh) Division (14 Jan to 14 feb) and then 74th (Yeomanry) Division (5 April to 23 August); B Squadron forms a depot at Zeitoun.

August 1917 : rejoined. Became XX Corps Cavalry Regiment. C Sqn remained at Zeitoun from July to September.

April 1918: left the Corps and became F Battalion of the Machine Gun Corps.

1 June 1918 : landed at Marseilles for service in France.

19 August 1918 : renamed 104th Battalion MGC. .

2/2nd

Formed as a Second-Line regiment at Westminster in September 1914 and remained at home throughout the war.

Under orders of 2/1st London Mounted Brigade.

The history of this unit is a little uncertain, with various versions having been published. The regimental history says that it remained dismounted and went to France in late 1915 for guard duties, but returned to England in summer 1916. In 1917 most of the personnel were transferred to the Tank Corps. Other versions do not mention the journey to France.

3/2nd

Formed in April 1915.

1916: affiliated to 9th Reserve Cavalry Regiment at the Curragh.

Early 1917: absorbed into 4th Reserve Cavalry Regiment at Aldershot.

[FROGSMILE]

Same guy, different picture.

Closer view of head and shoulders.

Picture on the right, All I know for this one is his surname is Birt.

The young man on the right is also a trooper in a yeomanry regiment, this time the Lovat Scouts, a well known Scottish unit, although it is unusual that he is wearing a SD cap rather than the Tam-o-Shanter that the regiment usually wore. Collar badges too were not always standard wear during the war. In the attached pic is another man of the regiment in the same dress, although he is wearing a collar badge on his cap, as well as 2 on his collar.

The two Lovat Scouts battalions saw extensive involvement in the First World War. Each battalion raised two further duplicate battalions (2/1st & 2/2nd) during the war. The Lovat Scouts saw service on the Western Front, at Gallipoli, and in Egypt and Macedonia.

In Macedonia in December 1916 the 1/1st and 1/2nd battalions were merged, dismounted and along with a company from the 1/3rd battalion The Scottish Horse formed 10th (Lovat Scouts) Battalion, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. It still retained the uniform of the Lovat Scouts until disbanded in 1919.

The 2/1st and 2/2nd battalions were based at home in the United Kingdom and provided drafts for the 1/1st, 1/2nd and 10th Bn Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. From 1916 when they merged to form the 1st (Lovat Scouts) Yeomanry Cyclist Regiment, they also provide men for the Lovat Scouts (Sharpshooters)

The Sharpshooters were formed from gamekeepers or gillies of the highland estates and were used in an observation and sniping role on the Western Front until the end of the War.

The 3/1st and 3/2nd battalions were raised in 1915 and provided drafts to 1st and 2nd Line battalions. They were disbanded in 1917 and the personnel were distributed between the 1st (Lovat Scouts) Yeomanry Cyclist Regiment and 3rd (Special Reserve) Bn, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders.

With the defence cuts implemented after World War I, one regiment of the Lovat Scouts was disbanded in 1922.

[steve fuller]

Hi Gary

Re George Smith

Sadly, there is not much to go on, especially with the name he has of course! If he was a pre war regular, below are those George Smiths who were and who survived:

1. 3/8099 George Smith who formed part of the training cadre that built the 8th battalion. Served abroad from 30/8/1915.
   
2. 8488 George Henry Smith who seems to have forfeited his medals after being administratively classed as a deserter. Whether he was or whether it was an admin error, I have not had the cause to look into, so cannot shed any more light on that tale.
   
3. 10189 George W.A. Smith who's family address in 1942 seems to have been Acton in London if any use. Served with 1st Bn from August 1914, fighting at Mons and other early engagements until wounded at some stage. Later served in the Royal Irish Fusiliers and Liverpool Rgt.
   

There are also several George's, a George Thomas and a George William who were not pre war soldiers and who survived.

So, not a huge amount to help narrow him down as it stands, but hopefully its a start at least ...

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

Same guy, different picture.

Closer view of head and shoulders.

Picture on the right, All I know for this one is his surname is Birt.

The man in centre is our Westminster Dragoon again, but at left is a later photo of him with medal ribbons and collar badges that together tend to indicate a post war photograph. This time he is no longer a Territorial Westminster Dragoon, but a 5th Royal Irish Lancer, and thus a Regular cavalryman.

You can learn about them here: http://www.royalirishlancers.co.uk/

[gpsmith]

Thanks for all of that guys, it gives me a lot to work on.

Much appreciated.

Gary

[gpsmith]

Jack Smith is a private in a Fusilier Regt, but it is not possible to tell which one from the angle of the photo. At the start of the war almost all the Fusilier Regts were using a standard grenade badge on their shoulder straps, commonly known as the 'universal grenade', and beneath it a brass title in block letters to indicate which regiment. These latter included RF for Royal Fusiliers, NF for Northumberland Fusiliers, LF for Lancashire Fusiliers, and so on, just as you can see for my own 'avatar' on this site. You can see this 2-piece badge on his shoulders, but it is not clear which one it is. Another slightly unusual factor is that he is wearing a second pair of 'universal grenades' as collar badges, which only a very few battalions chose to do until after the war, when more started to follow that practice. Knowing where Jack came from would give a clue to which fusilier unit he is in, but it would not be definitive because he could have been sent to any unit, irrespective of geographical ties, as a reinforcement.

Not 100% sure but almost that the family were from Luton. Apart from the gent who you have identified to be in the Lovat Scouts. All the others are brothers. There is also another brother who served in WW1 but the only pic i have of him is bare of any badges etc

Why would they not have all served in the local regiment?

[FROGSMILE]

Not 100% sure but almost that the family were from Luton. Apart from the gent who you have identified to be in the Lovat Scouts. All the others are brothers. There is also another brother who served in WW1 but the only pic i have of him is bare of any badges etc

Why would they not have all served in the local regiment?

The nearest Fusilier Regt to Luton would have been the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regt) and that would fit with the general appearance of his shoulder titles, although without corroboration it is not definite. They were the senior (first formed) fusilier regiment and originally the 7th of Foot. Unusually it had no Territorial battalions of its own (but it had 4 rather than the more usual 2 regular battalions) and instead had allocated 4 of the 27 London Regiment battalions, which were thus affiliated with, and badged to, the Royal Fusiliers, with just special shoulder titles to show their association with the London Regt. Your man is definitely not from the London Regt part of the RF family, as his shoulder titles are of the basic type, indicating that he is in either a Regular or Service battalion.

Joining the local regiment was never a given and families sometimes developed traditions to join a particular regiment that extended over several generations. An added factor in WW1 is that local units often led too whole streets and districts losing their menfolk when a particular local unit was decimated or even wiped out completely. Add to this the arbitrary way in which casualties could occur and supply and demand soon led to men being sent to whatever regiment was most in need of reinforcements, irrespective of an individuals original regiment. In this way it was not uncommon by late 1917 early 1918 for a man to be wounded several times and on recovery find himself sent to a different regiment each time.

[gpsmith]

The nearest Fusilier Regt to Luton would have been the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regt) and that would fit with the general appearance of his shoulder titles, although without corroboration it is not definite. They were the senior (first formed) fusilier regiment and originally the 7th of Foot. Unusually it had no Territorial battalions of its own (but it had 4 rather than the more usual 2 regular battalions) and instead had allocated 4 of the 27 London Regiment battalions, which were thus affiliated with, and badged to, the Royal Fusiliers, with just special shoulder titles to show their association with the London Regt. Your man is definitely not from the London Regt part of the RF family, as his shoulder titles are of the basic type, indicating that he is in either a Regular or Service battalion.

Joining the local regiment was never a given and families sometimes developed traditions to join a particular regiment that extended over several generations. An added factor in WW1 is that local units often led too whole streets and districts losing their menfolk when a particular local unit was decimated or even wiped out completely. Add to this the arbitrary way in which casualties could occur and supply and demand soon led to men being sent to whatever regiment was most in need of reinforcements, irrespective of an individuals original regiment. In this way it was not uncommon by late 1917 early 1918 for a man to be wounded several times and on recovery find himself sent to a different regiment each time.

Thanks for that, very informative.

Gary.