Those wooden "shoes" on the wheels of large artillery pieces

[Hoplophile]

Shortly before the outbreak of World War I, the Germans, the French, and the Italians began to put flat pieces of wood, mounted in a way that allowed them some freedom of movement, on the rims of the wheels of some of their heavier artillery pieces. These served to reduce the chances that the piece would sink in softer ground. Moreover, when combined with small ramps ("chocks"), they helped manage the forces generated upon firing, and so prevent the piece from moving too far in the course of recoil.

The Germans called each set of these a Radgürtel (literally a "wheel belt"). The French called each set a ceinture de roues (also "wheel belt"). The Italians called each set cingoli ("chains"). I don't, however, know what these things were called in English. Can anyone help me?

[Jack Sheldon]

Sorry, I do not know. I was just about to pm you, but your inbox appears to be full. Can you check it please?

Jack

[Muerrisch]

Scotches are the "chocks", not sure of t'others, possibly grousers.

Next question?

[MikB]

I think they were called pattens - after wooden extension soles added to normal shoes to keep them out of the worst mud and ordure in mediaeval streets.

Regards,

MikB

[RobL]

Wikipedia calls them 'Girdles' on the page for the 6 inch 26 cwt howitzer;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_inch_26_cwt_howitzer

I'm sure i've seen them described as "*something* (Boyden's?) feet"

I've also seen them, in a non-military and pre-WW1 context, on the wheeled launching carriages of horse-drawn Royal National Lifeboat Institution carriages for the rowing/sailing Lifeboats to help them across sand

[Muerrisch]

try googling artillery wheel grouser and see if you disagree with old grumpy.

[MikB]

try googling artillery wheel grouser and see if you disagree with old grumpy.

Hmmm... I think I do, at least partially. Grousers were really there to increase traction on powered wheels or tracks by placing soil in shear, not to reduce sinkage by increasing and levelling contact surface area...

Try this:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grouser

Best regards,

MikB

[Muerrisch]

Hmmm... I think I do, at least partially. Grousers were really there to increase traction on powered wheels or tracks by placing soil in shear, not to reduce sinkage by increasing and levelling contact surface area...

Try this:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grouser

Best regards,

MikB

I hardly see how a grouser could fail to perform both functions. Besides, grumpies are akin to grousers .........

[centurion]

I'm sure i've seen them described as "*something* (Boyden's?) feet"

Probably because a guy called Boyden built a military traction engine (the world's second powered military vehicle) in the middle of the 19th century that had big wooden feet (complete with big toes) on springs on the wheel.

Said by some to be the first tracked vehicle

Worked well on soft to middle going but on hard surfaces the feet broke

PS there was a suggestion to put an armoured body and some guns on it but the military considered that a very ungentlemany proposal

[Moonraker]

There was also the Pedrail Landship which employed "feet". See

Wikipedia

Looking in its incomplete state like a single-deck tramcar, the Lanship was forty feet long and was intended to be an armour-plated mobile flame-thrower equipped with three heavy machine-guns. Initially it ran on the only English form of caterpillar track, known as 'Pedrails' – cumbersome blocks attached to a belt.

By mid-February 1916 the base chassis had been made by Stothert & Pitt of Bath, but there were doubts that the completed vehicle would be proof against machine-gun fire at close range, as well as concern about its weight of thirty-five tons. It was decided to take it by road to Porton, near Salisbury, for extensive trials. By 22 July it was ready to leave. However the 'Pedrail feet-mechanisms' proved unsuitable for roads and, it is said, at Bratton, near Westbury, had to be replaced with those of stronger steel and different design by a local agricultural engineering company, R & J Reeves & Son. The vehicle was tested on the steep track, then unsurfaced, up to Bratton Castle. Reeves had supplied wheeled water tanks for the army in the drought of 1911 and it agreed with the War Department that in any correspondence or in answer to any questions the Pedrail should be referred to as a 'tank'.

When the Landship finally reached Porton, it acquitted itself 'quite satisfactorily' but there were doubts about its ability to cross trenches and it never saw active service. An initial order for twelve at £3,000 each was cancelled.

Moonraker

[dfaulder]

OED: Mud-shoe:

An attachment or appendage to the shoes, facilitating movement over soft mud (now hist.); a similar attachment to a vehicle. Also in extended use.

1959 A. Hardy Fish & Fisheries xvi. 303 The tractors‥will‥have buoyancy tanks so that they are light enough to skim the bottom on their mud-shoes without sinking in.

Also (which may give a clue as to origin):

A type of horseshoe designed for use on soft ground.

2001 St. Petersburg (Florida) Times (Nexis) 3 Jan. 10 Farmers bagged their mules' feet in burlap so they wouldn't bog down in the wet muck. Plowing mules also wore ‘mud shoes’‥The wooden flats, 8 inches square and about 2 inches thick, were clamped to the beasts' hooves.

David

[centurion]

There was also the Pedrail Landship which employed "feet". See

Wikipedia

Looking in its incomplete state like a single-deck tramcar, the Lanship was forty feet long and was intended to be an armour-plated mobile flame-thrower equipped with three heavy machine-guns. Initially it ran on the only English form of caterpillar track, known as 'Pedrails' – cumbersome blocks attached to a belt.

By mid-February 1916 the base chassis had been made by Stothert & Pitt of Bath, but there were doubts that the completed vehicle would be proof against machine-gun fire at close range, as well as concern about its weight of thirty-five tons. It was decided to take it by road to Porton, near Salisbury, for extensive trials. By 22 July it was ready to leave. However the 'Pedrail feet-mechanisms' proved unsuitable for roads and, it is said, at Bratton, near Westbury, had to be replaced with those of stronger steel and different design by a local agricultural engineering company, R & J Reeves & Son. The vehicle was tested on the steep track, then unsurfaced, up to Bratton Castle. Reeves had supplied wheeled water tanks for the army in the drought of 1911 and it agreed with the War Department that in any correspondence or in answer to any questions the Pedrail should be referred to as a 'tank'.

When the Landship finally reached Porton, it acquitted itself 'quite satisfactorily' but there were doubts about its ability to cross trenches and it never saw active service. An initial order for twelve at £3,000 each was cancelled.

Moonraker

As is often the case - do not rely on wiki unless its for inaccuracy. Pedrails were not cumbersome blocks - there was some complex springing in there and there is no relationship to the shoes under discussion. Steering was a major problem with the design evaluated by the Landships committee and it was decided that it would both have poor direction as well as inadequate trench crossing capabilty. The final version would have been articulated. The unarticulated unarmoured prototype was retained as a possible armoured flame thrower carrier. The adoption of tank as a cover seems to be of later date.

The original pedrails were wheeled vehicles and formed the genesis of Well's 'The Land Ironclads'.

[Piorun]

I thought they were just called tractor pads. Antony

[Pete1052]

Bruce, here's a thread that will warm your heart. Remember, drift is a left correction.

[Piorun]

What's that got to do with tractor pads - or whatever they're called?

[Hoplophile]

I would like to express my appreciation to all who replied to my post. Thanks to you, I am enlightened (at least on this subject!)

[pjjobson]

From the Royal Artillery Glossary of Terms and Abbreviations:

Ped-Rails A series of wooden blocks, 24-inches by 10-inches fitted to the wheels of field guns and wagons during WW1 in order to reduce ground pressure and thus ease progress across soft sand and mud. Documentary evidence would suggest that a similar system was used for heavier artillery pieces under the title girdles.

Phil

[Piorun]

Well, that's pretty definitive. Antony

[centurion]

Well, that's pretty definitive. Antony

Although its not an "official" RA glossary.

Pedrail at the time meant a wheel or track assembly and not just wooden blocks

"A device intended to replace the wheel of a self-propelled vehicle for use on rough roads and to approximate to the smoothness in running of a wheel on a metal track. The tread consists of a number of rubber shod feet which are connected by ball-and-socket joints to the ends of sliding spokes. Each spoke has attached to it a small roller which in its turn runs under a short pivoted rail controlled by a powerful set of springs. This arrangement permits the feet to accommodate themselves to obstacles even such as steps or stairs." 1913

[michaeldr]

From the Royal Artillery Glossary of Terms and Abbreviations:

Ped-Rails A series of wooden blocks, 24-inches by 10-inches fitted to the wheels of field guns and wagons during WW1 in order to reduce ground pressure and thus ease progress across soft sand and mud.

These things must have been quite heavy, and/or less useful on better going.

I was reading yesterday (sorry, I did not make a note of the ref) in the OH regarding the EEF's final push in September 1918, they removed the 'ped-rails' in order that the guns could keep up with the quick pace of the advance.

regards

Michael