French Single Loop Knuckle Dusters

[militariaone]

Greetings all, I recently purchased the Aluminum Model on French eBay and the Steel Model from a UK Militaria website. They reminded me of the R & D knives style (That I like) even though they are of French origin. The Aluminum model came with a similarly rough made trench art letter opener and I have included it the picture because they appear to be related in terms of their metals' composition.

The Steel Model is maker marked "D'Armes De St Etienne" from French state-owned manufacturing company located in the town of Saint-Étienne. I wanted to ask if any members have seen any literature or observed catalogs with these for sale? I assume too, these are private purchase items. The Aluminum Model looks like it was cast by some one looking for a quick sale, while the Steel Model (Pitting aside) has a nice heft and feels well made. Standing by for illumination, or the proverbial link to the appropriate former discussion elsewhere in this forum.

Regards,

Lance

[Piorun]

A thousand years ago, we were taught that the only thing one should hold in ones hand was a thing that could kill someone else with a single action. To have to hold onto something prevented one from using that hand for anything but holding onto it - and opening a closed fist that is holding a single knuckle-duster is to invite someone to rip ones finger off. However, no doubt some saw a use for these things. The steel one looks serious. Antony

[Dan Brock]

These are really interesting. First off, assuming that the steel one is original - being maker-marked - it would be logical to assume that the aluminum one was cast using it as a pattern. That's what I would have done.

That's not what happened. The aluminum example is thicker in the cross-section of any part likely to be stressed. So, it was purpose cast from a separate pattern than the other (I'm going to be pedantic and say "cast iron" because steel doesn't cast easily and would be serious overkill in something where the aluminum is more than adequate to the task).

Had the aluminum piece been cast using the other as a pattern, the casting would be thinner overall - which it's not.

It's the same design only scaled to aluminum. In fact, an aluminum casting from the iron would be so thin as to be unworkable.

The same way that the popular Robbins knives were widely copied,

I suspect that the "production" piece was copied by someone with the minimal equipment (otherwise I couldn't afford to do it) needed to cast aluminum - which was the "wonder metal" of the age.

There's a story in there somewhere.

And, did the letter opener have any provenance linking it to the KD?

There's my 50th part of a dollar.

All the best.

Also, it looks like the teeth on the iron one are filed while those on the aluminum appear to be left as-cast.

[militariaone]

Greetings Dan, the letter opener was part of the same lot offered in the eBay auction as the Aluminum Model’s purchase. Other than it coming with the Aluminum Model and sharing the same feel, patina, and roughness of casting there is no true/non-reputable connection. I do believe/feel that if they were not made by the same hand, they were at least made in the same manner with the same base material. They are very trench-artsy (If you allow me to make up a new adjective).

I saw the Steel model months ago languishing on the aforementioned militaria site. I thought it was interesting, but I did not take interest in it until the Aluminum Model appeared on eBay. I immediately thought that it had been cast from the Steel one, but once I received both it was clear that, that was not the case. I based that opinion upon observations similar to your post’s.

Antony, I concur with your comments. I think you’d be asking for trouble (For your knuckles) if you swung at someone with this and did not connect with something fleshy. On the upside it’s very concealable when worn and may be of use if your idea of a good time was sucker punching fellow drunks in a bar.

Either case, individually they are of interest, but as a pair they are far more interesting (at least to me). Happy for your comments, Gents.

Regards,

Lance

P.S. Dan is there some simpleton test for determining Cast Iron construction Vs. Steel?

[Dan Brock]

P.S. Dan is there some simpleton test for determining Cast Iron construction Vs. Steel?

Hi Lance,

All that springs to mind is to break it. Cast iron will be coarser grained.

Steel may be more responsive to a magnet though.

Test it in comparison with something that you're sure is made of either.

[wainfleet]

P.S. Dan is there some simpleton test for determining Cast Iron construction Vs. Steel?

There is such a test, discovered by Archimedes, but it requires you to have a steel or cast iron item exactly the same weight as the object you are testing. If you can arrange that, the two items are suspended one on either side of a balance. They should then hang at the same level. Dip them into water, and whichever is less dense, ie. presumably cast iron compared to steel, will displace less water and thus not sink in as far as the other.

If this explanation is not clear, see the "Golden Crown" paragraph on the Wikipedia page on Archimedes.

Best of luck!

W.

[Dan Brock]

There is such a test, discovered by Archimedes, but it requires you to have a steel or cast iron item exactly the same weight as the object you are testing. If you can arrange that, the two items are suspended one on either side of a balance. They should then hang at the same level. Dip them into water, and whichever is less dense, ie. presumably cast iron compared to steel, will displace less water and thus not sink in as far as the other.

If this explanation is not clear, see the "Golden Crown" paragraph on the Wikipedia page on Archimedes.

Best of luck!

W.

Well now, certainly beats breaking it as was my brilliant plan. What you have to do first, Lance is make an exact replica out of iron or steel.

But, we're talking about being very exact since the item in question is rather tiny.

But all very doable.

Easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy.

Let us know what you find out.

[wainfleet]

Exact replica absolutely not needed! Just a piece or pieces of either steel or cast iron amounting to exactly the same weight as the item for testing.

[Dan Brock]

Exact replica absolutely not needed! Just a piece or pieces of either steel or cast iron amounting to exactly the same weight as the item for testing.

Now that does sound possible. Hadn't looked at it that way.