General Hospitals, Stationary Hospitals, C.C.S. - mapped?

[b3rn]

Researching Australian Army nurses in WW1 and am looking at locations on the Western Front ... we've begun to map (in Google Maps) the locations of some of the Australian hospitals; for example, No. 2 Australian Casualty Clearing Station at Trois Arbres.

Has anyone mapped these hospitals? Or have good quality maps showing locations? It occurred to me that the work may already have been done.

I'd like to make the locations as precise as possible, for our own use when visiting these places, but also so that others can use the maps. Currently the maps are Google My Maps, but we'll make them public (as well as the underlying data as KML) when they're in reasonable shape.

[b3rn]

I've now seen that some trench maps locate hospitals. But also that access to those maps comes at a price

Anyone who uses Linesman or the IWM product ... could you tell me if CCS are often marked, or whether map bounds include locations several miles from the front?

[Ron Clifton]

Hello b3m, and welcome to the Forum.

There is a class of maps other than trench maps at the National Archives at Kew. It is class WO153 and consists of 1354 "pieces". You might like to browse the catalogue on Kew's website but, apart fro a few showing German hospital locations, the only one I could see which might be relevant is WO153/1169, "Miscellaneous maps and plans: Medical."

There may also be maps in the War Diaries of either the Cheif Engineers or the Directors of Medical Services at the various British coastal and inland bases. These may be found in class WO95, files 4006 to 4047, or in the records of the hospitals themselves in files 4074 to 4123 of the same class. War Diaries for CCSs are also in that class, near the beginning, under the various Armies with which they served as at Nov 1918.

There are some maps showing locations of CCSs etc within the Official History series.

There is also a reprint, available from the IWM, "Locations of hospitals and casualty clearing stations", originally prepared just after the War by the British Red Cross Society, but it only gives the town, not a more precise reference. CCSs in particular moved about quite a bit and the dates that they were at specifed places are also given in this document.

If you have access to issue 18 (from about 1986) of STAND TO! the journal of the Western Front Association, there is an article "Toplis, Etaples and the Monocled Mutineer" which includes a fairly detailed map of Etaples camp in 1917 showing where the hospitals were.

Good luck!

Ron

[Morris]

I think you might be able to work out some locations of hospitals etc by looking at the location of some of the Commonwealth War Cemeteries. Many cemeteries were located where they were because they had originally been next door to CCS's or Hospitals.

For example there is a massive cemetery at Lijssenhoek west of Poperinge that is on the same spot as the 10th Stationary Hospital was when my father was stationed there. There are some details at the CWGC site see:

CWGC Lijssenthoek

(Lijssenhoek was known as Remy Sidings during the war: The 10th CCS, 13th CCS, 17th CCS, 38th CCS, 54th CCS and 62nd CCS were also located there at some time, this fact brings up the problem that CCSs moved around to several locations during the war, and even Stationary Hospitals were not stationary and moved about too. My grandmother was told by the War Office that my father had been sent to the 10th SH, but in the wrong town, as someone at the WO seemed not to have noted that the SH had moved.)

There will I am sure be similar details at the CGWC for other cemeteries regarding what hospitals etc had been there during the war: perhaps the CWGC could even help you answer your questions about where hospitals were sited.

Have you already found the lists of the locations of the CCSs and Hospitals at:

http://www.1914-1918.net/ccs.htm

and

http://www.1914-1918.net/hospitals.htm

Good luck with your mapping project

Alfred

[Smithmaps]

I've now seen that some trench maps locate hospitals. But also that access to those maps comes at a price

Anyone who uses Linesman or the IWM product ... could you tell me if CCS are often marked, or whether map bounds include locations several miles from the front?

Hi, a couple of suggestions:

The new LinesMan20 for 1:20,000 and 1:40,000 scale mapping covers a far wider area than we are used to with the 1:10,000 scale products. This therefore covers back areas on both sides. With LinesMan, you can build your own overlays and share them with other users. Even add your own icons.

I am not aware that Hospitals or casualty clearing stations were marked on the standard trench map series, and this would be down to your research. But as a place to store and collate the information, LinesMan 20 would be the one to get.

Scope of maps on this page

My other suggestion would be to contact the R.A.M.C. museum at Deepcut. I know the curator, Pete Starling, was quite into such things and I'm sure would be glad to help you.

Regards

Guy

[b3rn]

Quick reply to thank you - Ron Clifton, Alfred Morris, Smithmaps - much appreciated. Will post back.

[petestarling]

Guy

Thanks for the plug. Certainly some of the maps show the larger CCS complexes. Abeele is one which comes to mind showing the site of the Remy Siding complex and also Proven I seem to remember shows the Mendingem complex.

The plan of Etaples already mentioned shows all the hospitals and I have one in the museum for Le Harve.

I am presently trying to record the locations of RAPs, Field Ambulance ADS' and CCS but knowing the scale of the project I will probably be long gone before it is finished. The best source is the unit war diaries some of which have very good sketch maps appended as well as the map references included in the diaries.

Pete

[Morris]

I am presently trying to record the locations of RAPs, Field Ambulance ADS' and CCS but knowing the scale of the project I will probably be long gone before it is finished. The best source is the unit war diaries some of which have very good sketch maps appended as well as the map references included in the diaries.

Pete

Pete

If you do not already have them, I know the location of a couple of ADSs used by Field Ambulances on the Givenchy section of Front. There is a trench map of this section at my blog see:

Trench map of Festhubert Givenchy area

The map is about half way down the (long) page and it enlarges if clicked.

One of the ADSs was at Lone Farm (middle bottom of map)

another was at Tuning Fork junction (middle left)

The blog is about my father's letters during his time in the RAMC. He mentions no names of places referring to most laocations as cellars of varying quality. He was with the 2/1 Wessex Field Ambulance for a while and the history of the WFA mentions most of the places where the CCS and ADS they used were.eg at Gorre (brewery) ands another in a school in Bethune.

As you say a work in progress to find/map them all and one that will take a while.

Alfred

[petestarling]

Alfred

Many thanks, I did not have these. It is quite time consuming going through all the printed Field Ambulance histories but everyone helps.

Pete

[b3rn]

A question about 10 Stationary Hospital, St. Omer - is this its location?

(centre of map, 22 Rue Saint-Bertin?)

From scarletfinders.co.uk:

"...went with Major Cummings to see 2 buildings for 10 Stationary Hospital then arriving. Decided upon the School of St. Joseph now occupied by a Clearing Hospital which was most excellent. Stretchers raised on folding tressles easy of transport and a theatre in excellent order." - link

A St. Omer tourism site lists this approximate location as the College des Jesuites Anglais; Wikipedia suggests the Jesuit college in St. Omer was a military hospital in WW1; and there's this print L'hopital anglais de l'ancien college Saint-Joseph.

[KevinBattle]

A very worthwhile project, as I'm sure most regulars here will believe that their forefathers may well have been treated at one or more of these, so will be interested to chart their progress through the casualty chain. Some, of course, will not have survived their wounds, so the CWGC suggestion may be a fruitful one, inasmuch as the initial Plot(s) may have been "open ground" nearby, but after the Armistice and clearing away the hospital sites may have allowed the vacated ground to be used to expand existing CWGC cemetery sites.

Good idea and wish you success with this.

[paul.hickey]

If its Australian CCS, Hospitals etc that you are after, a good starting point is here - http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/war_diaries/first_world_war/class.asp?levelID=94

This will give you the war diaries for all the units and as a minimum, the town/locality. Many War diaries also include Map reference details which would give you the pinpoints that you are after.

Cheers

[b3rn]

If its Australian CCS, Hospitals etc that you are after, a good starting point is here - http://www.awm.gov.a....asp?levelID=94

This will give you the war diaries for all the units and as a minimum, the town/locality. Many War diaries also include Map reference details which would give you the pinpoints that you are after.

Cheers

Thanks LeoMc, I have indeed been working through the diaries, alongside the official history. About half the locations have a map reference, and I've used the McMaster military maps http://library.mcmas...w1/ndx5to40.htm to plot those locations. Some diaries also have camp sketches (like 1 A.C.C.S.).

But McMaster doesn't have Sheet 36d for Blendecques (just south of St Omer). Anyone on the forum able to provide a close-up snapshot of these positions?

1.A.C.C.S. Sh.36d.N.E.F.5.b.7.6. BLENDECQUES

2 A.C.C.S. Sh.36d.N.E.F.5.b.9.6 BLENDECQUES

Incidentally, the war diary for 1 A.C.C.S. (around May/June 1918) attaches as appendix several pages that list the current locations (map references) for Aust., Canadian and British Casualty Clearing Stations ... ... might be useful for others.

[b3rn]

UPDATE - 1 and 2 A.C.C.S. in Blendecques located, via war diary sketches of the camp ... wasn't too hard to ID

Instead, if anyone reading this has precise locations for the Australian General Hospitals in Abbeville and Wimereux ... ?

(War diary for 1AGH December 1918 has two detailed maps of the hospital's layout on the race course, and locates 10GH)

[petestarling]

Very valuable link.

Many thanks.

Pete

[Morris]

Just having an idle search in Google and found this:

History of Base Hospital No 5

Any help?

Alfred

[petestarling]

Alfred

Had not seen this. Many thanks.

Pete

[b3rn]

Another question: anyone know the precise location of No 2. British Stationary Hospital in Abbeville?

Will help me locate No 3. A.G.H. (altho' if you know where that is ... )

[liamcornes1983]

Hi Alfred,

My Great Great Grandfather was stationed at 10th Stationary Hospital, do you have any group photos of them? I would love to see them,

My Great Great Grandfather was

Pte. Bert Blows

3592

[Bardess]

Hi Liam

Welcome to the Forum

You have attained the minimum 5 posts that will now unlock the PM system [and much more]. I advise you to edit your last post and remove your email address and PM it to Alfred

[Morris]

Liam

I have sent you a PM, but agree with above suggestion that you edit your earlier post that includes your email address.

Spammers use programmes that hunt through sites/forums etc looking for emails and then harvest them.

Alfred

[liamcornes1983]

Hi Bardess,

Ooops sorry, it has now been removed

[b3rn]

My Great Great Grandfather was stationed at 10th Stationary Hospital, do you have any group photos of them? I would love to see them,

Hi Liam, I've been working on mapping the Australian hospitals but am interested in 10 Stationary. Many nurses passed through here. Here is what I have, I hope someone can confirm/correct this information.

10 Stationary Hospital building could be that occupied today by the Lycée Alexandre Ribot on Rue Saint-Bertin (Google Maps link). A view from its internal quadrangle can been seen here.

"…went with Major Cummings to see 2 buildings for 10 Stationary Hospital then arriving. Decided upon the School of St. Joseph now occupied by a Clearing Hospital which was most excellent. Stretchers raised on folding tressles easy of transport and a theatre in excellent order."

War diary, October 1914 – Matron-in-Chief B.E.F.

L'HOPITAL ANGLAIS DE L'ANCIEN COLLEGE SAINT-JOSEPH A SAINT-OMER – LA CHAPELLE (1916) – source. This drawing also appears in the Illustrated London News, Saturday, May 6, 1916 with the title 'In a Town Which Sheltered Thomas a Becket: British Wounded at Saint-Omer' with the caption "drawn on the spot by J. Simont".

I haven't been able to find a contemporary photo of this chapel on the web - I'm not sure where it might be.

23.05.18. Air-raids: Received telephone message from A/Principal Matron, St. Omer, saying that 3 bombs had been dropped on 10 Stationary Hospital during the night, and that 2 Medical Officers had been killed, 4 wards completely destroyed, 17 patients killed, but fortunately there were no casualties amongst the nursing staff. The Sick Sisters' Hospital [the convent?] had had a narrow escape.

War diary, Matron-in-Chief

I think nurses had billets in the convent on Rue des Bleuets (No. 6 on Google Maps) ... I'm not sure if this is the Sick Sisters' Hospital referred to above.

[Chris Bent]

I am looking to find the exact location of no 2 stationary hospital, abbeville. It is where my grandfather was taken following his gassing at Avion. Does anyone have any information? Thanks. Chris.