Tim Lynch Posted 28 March , 2011 Share Posted 28 March , 2011 Hi, Can anyone help me identify this cap badge please? The only clue I have is that the picture is dated December 1915. Any suggestions greatly appreciated. Thanks Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATNOMIS Posted 28 March , 2011 Share Posted 28 March , 2011 Pals First posted Here. Large picture with shoulder pips? Atnomis/Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 28 March , 2011 Share Posted 28 March , 2011 http://www.britishbadge.co.uk/index.php?osCsid=27e046a61f60a74ed1ff3b7b3a0bc036 Try this, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Foster Posted 28 March , 2011 Share Posted 28 March , 2011 Looks like the Indian, 12th Pioneer Bn (The Kelat-i-Ghilze Regiment ) Crossed axes under XII http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/indianinfantry/12thpioneers.htm Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lynch Posted 28 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2011 Thanks Chris, I followed the link and it definitely looks right. I'm a bit confused now, though because I'm finding conflicting info about them. On the one hand I read that they served in India and Mesopotamia but also that some of them were killed around Neuve Chappelle. Anyone out there able to clarify? Given that the guy was able to give his picture to a nurse in the UK in December 1915 it seems likely that he was home on leave and that suggests France to me. Also, just on the off-chance, does anyone have access to an Army List of early 1916? I've got October and there's no candidate there by the name of 'Richmond' in the 12th but he could well have moved on by the October edition. He should be in the December 15 or January 16 list. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 March , 2011 Share Posted 28 March , 2011 Thanks Chris, I followed the link and it definitely looks right. I'm a bit confused now, though because I'm finding conflicting info about them. On the one hand I read that they served in India and Mesopotamia but also that some of them were killed around Neuve Chappelle. Anyone out there able to clarify? Given that the guy was able to give his picture to a nurse in the UK in December 1915 it seems likely that he was home on leave and that suggests France to me. Also, just on the off-chance, does anyone have access to an Army List of early 1916? I've got October and there's no candidate there by the name of 'Richmond' in the 12th but he could well have moved on by the October edition. He should be in the December 15 or January 16 list. Tim I understand that quite a lot of Indian Army officers became attached to infantry (and other) units that had suffered heavy officer casualties towards the end of the war, especially after the March 1918 retreat. I suspect that he might have been so attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 28 March , 2011 Share Posted 28 March , 2011 In 1914 a lot of Indian Army officers home on long fulough were commandeered by the War Office to serve in New Army units. If your man was giving his photo to a nurse in 1915 (the rogue), I suspect he may well have been serving thus. Looking through my limited sources, I can't see mention of reinforcement officers appearing from the 12th Pioneers (that's very far from conclusive, mind). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Watch Posted 28 March , 2011 Share Posted 28 March , 2011 I'm a bit confused now, though because I'm finding conflicting info about them. On the one hand I read that they served in India and Mesopotamia but also that some of them were killed around Neuve Chappelle. Tim The Meerut and Lahore Divisions originally served on the Western Front and were involved in the battles at Neuve Chappelle, Aubers Ridge, Festubert, and Loos before they were transferred to Mesopotamia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 March , 2011 Share Posted 28 March , 2011 In 1914 a lot of Indian Army officers home on long fulough were commandeered by the War Office to serve in New Army units. If your man was giving his photo to a nurse in 1915 (the rogue), I suspect he may well have been serving thus. Looking through my limited sources, I can't see mention of reinforcement officers appearing from the 12th Pioneers (that's very far from conclusive, mind). Yes, that makes more sense. Whether it was 1914 or 17-18 that he came over, I think he was more than likely attached to a Service battalion to make up officer numbers. The Meerut and Lahore Divisions originally served on the Western Front and were involved in the battles at Neuve Chappelle, Aubers Ridge, Festubert, and Loos before they were transferred to Mesopotamia. When did they go to Mespot, was it before or after Dec 1915? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 The Indian infantry left France in late '15. Off the top of my head I couldn't give a date, but certainly after Loos. Incidentally, the 12th Pioneers weren't with either. Again, from memory, the pioneers of the Meerut and Lahore Divisions were the 34th Sikh Pioneers and the 107th Pioneers (though don't quote me on that, and I can't remember which was with which division). It is, of course, possible that your man was attached to one or other of them (quite possible, in fact). Interestingly, the 39th Garwhal Rifles had Indian officers (commissioned officers, not just VCOs) and men attached from an Indian States Forces Pioneer Battalion. I merely add that for interest. No extra charge. I must say, however, that my money would be on him being with a Service Battalion in the British service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 The Indian infantry left France in late '15. Off the top of my head I couldn't give a date, but certainly after Loos. Incidentally, the 12th Pioneers weren't with either. Again, from memory, the pioneers of the Meerut and Lahore Divisions were the 34th Sikh Pioneers and the 107th Pioneers (though don't quote me on that, and I can't remember which was with which division). It is, of course, possible that your man was attached to one or other of them (quite possible, in fact). Interestingly, the 39th Garwhal Rifles had Indian officers (commissioned officers, not just VCOs) and men attached from an Indian States Forces Pioneer Battalion. I merely add that for interest. No extra charge. I must say, however, that my money would be on him being with a Service Battalion in the British service. Thanks Steven, that's interesting. I too think that the Service Battalion theory is the most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Googling while at lunch (they can't touch you for it, you know), I stumbled across This site, which indicates that the 12th (both 1st and 2nd Battalions) never left India as formed units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Tim This may be a case similar to one I have just been looking into. 'My' man was a pre-WW1 Militia officer, then a regular, then transferred to the Indian Army - 19th Lancers. He was on home leave in August 1914 and was soon at the front, in some capacity with the newly-formed Intelligence Corps. After recovering from an early wound he was given a staff appointment but managed to get himself into the front line with 4th Hussars, and was killed by shell-fire. His MICs are complicated, as a result! I do not know what badges he wore through all this. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lynch Posted 29 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Thanks for all the help guys, the net is definitely closing in on my mystery lieutenant! The official histories all say the 12th Pioneers were in India and Mesopotamia but I've tracked down 15 of them listed as casualties on the Western Front between February and October 1915, all on attachment to 34th Sikh Pioneers of Meerut Division. The dates are a good fit for my guy to have been with that group. It'll be a long time before I can get to Kew but hopefully I'll be able to find someone willing to have a look at the 34th's War Diary for that period and maybe find a mention of the 12th Pioneers officers. If anyone has any good sources for info on them I'd be very interested. In the meantime, watch this space! Thanks again Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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