croesgadwr Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Hi, my first post on the forum....and to be honest I'm not entirely certain that I'm right to post it on here!! Nevertheless someone might be able to help me out. Attatched is a photo of a number of bullets that I found whilst metal detecting on the outskirts of the town of Ruthin, Denbighshire recently. These are just a sample of the bullets found, but there were literally dozens in the area. The bullet heads are 31.5mm long, 11.5mm wide and weigh approx 30grms. I know that Ruthin gaol was used as a munitions factory during WW2, and that there was a POW camp just outside of the town (approx 1mile from the spot that the bullet heads were found). Any information would be gratfully received. Many thanks (in anticipation). Croesgadwr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Bullet heads??? Wowee. Wait till Tony gets here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 TonyE is indeed your man for this. To my inexpert eye these look to predate WWI. They appear to be lead bullets without a jacket and to judge by the rifling marks on the surface they never had one. 11.5mm would translate to about .450 calibre - and the weight is about correct for the .450 Martini-Henry round MkI, II and III (480 grains = 31.1g) as described in the LoC 2661 of 1873 I believe these rounds also had a double crimp.... so if I had to guess I think I would suggest these are bullets from a .450 Martini-Henry. Officially: bullets from the "Cartridge, Small Arm, Ball.BL.For Martini-Henry Arm." Ducks head waiting for inevitable corrections. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asanewt Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Hello and welcome to the forum. Croeso cynnes iawn. Nice interesting items. One appears to have struck a hard surface whilst tthe others if fired seem to have fallen spent or lodged in soft ground. The area around Ruthin is quite likely to be littered with similar items for a number of reasons. First as you say the Lang Pen company operated a munitions factory at the gaol site. If memory serves me there was similar activity at the local pop works in Mwrog St. Certainly as kids we could gather items like yours from spoil in the river at Cae Ddol where it had been tipped from the rear of the works after WW2. About the same time a couple of local lads stumbled on a mass of munitions stashed in a cave of sorts at the rock outcrop near Pwll Glas causing quite a stir at the time. I can't remember the detail but feel there was some talk of it being Home Guard material stored and forgotten!! I feel a rainy day trip to the Archives coming on to refresh my recall. It definitely made the local rags. The Castle Parks extending from Cae Ddol up the hills through woodlands towards Efenechtyd has areas known locally by various names including Shooting Mountain which it seems was the practice range for the Denbighshire Yeomanry who were noted for shooting competitions and a number of rated sharpshooters in their ranks. In addition the local drill hall has a very active past including a small bore range within its' perimeter walls? H&S? what H&S? Happy hunting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 TonyE is indeed your man for this. To my inexpert eye these look to predate WWI. They appear to be lead bullets without a jacket and to judge by the rifling marks on the surface they never had one. 11.5mm would translate to about .450 calibre - and the weight is about correct for the .450 Martini-Henry round MkI, II and III (480 grains = 31.1g) as described in the LoC 2661 of 1873 I believe these rounds also had a double crimp.... so if I had to guess I think I would suggest these are bullets from a .450 Martini-Henry. Officially: bullets from the "Cartridge, Small Arm, Ball.BL.For Martini-Henry Arm." Ducks head waiting for inevitable corrections. Chris I was thinking M-H too. Looks like it could be 7 grooves too, which would be right. The bullets were paper-patched, but I doubt that would have prevented the rifling from biting them as shown. Is right-hand twist correct? Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Id go for 577-450 too, currently doing some research on the M-H as I have a IMA untouched Nepalese Cache MkIV on its way from the states... I do love a good project Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Id go for 577-450 too, currently doing some research on the M-H as I have a IMA untouched Nepalese Cache MkIV on its way from the states... I do love a good project Gaz Me too! (this one isn't Nepalese though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croesgadwr Posted 24 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Amazing, in little more than one hour you guy's have provided me with more information than I could have reasonably expected!! My reason for posting the question was just personal interest. Having found them (last summer), I'd wondered about all aspects of "where, what and why" they were 'embedded' in a Ruthin hillside. Many thanks guy's. Croesgadwr. (Crusader) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Don't disappear! I'd wait for confirmation from TonyE on this. BTW - welcome to the Forum! (I should have started with that!) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Martini's breech mechanism was the refinement of an invention by an employee of the Burnside Rifle Company, Providence, Rhode Island, shortly after the Civil War. Yet another case of Europeans stealing American innovations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 OOO nice This is British made just saw service with the Nepalese, couldn't afford anything else, they are quite expensive, the exchange rate made it worth while compared to buying in the UK. But without Europeans the States wouldn't exist, its only fair we get something in return our immigration did create the US PS The US steals things too... John Garand was Canadian the M60 Machine gun was based of the FG42 and the US space programme used German scientists. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 25 March , 2011 Share Posted 25 March , 2011 PS The US steals things too... John Garand was Canadian, the M60 Machine gun was based of the FG42 and the US space programme used German scientists. Ho hum. The U.S. gets there the fastest with and the mostest, to coin a phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 25 March , 2011 Share Posted 25 March , 2011 croesgadwr - They are indeed bullets from the .577/.450 Martini-Henry rifle. Just to add to Chris's description, they are from the "Cartridge, Small Arm, Ball.BL.For Martini-Henry Arm Mark III." They can be distinguished from the earlier Mark I and II rounds by the two cannelures (grooves) round the bullet. Earlier marks only had one cannelure. The Mark III is the most commonly encountered version as it was in service for the longest period. It used the rolled case with iron head and picture is attached. It is only fair to explain to you the amusement shown in the previous posts. You used the description "bullet heads" in the title to your post and I am well known for my pedantry in correcting this term, since the head of a cartridge is the other end where the primer is. However, my irritation is aimed at those who should know better, dealers and collectors etc., and not those who post an honest question like yourself. Presumably these were found on the Ruthin side of Horseshoe Pass? There was also a Volunteers range on the Llangollen side, somewhere to the east of the A642. Jules W. I would have thought that the Yeomanry would have carried the M-H Cavalry Carbine, which used the Carbine Mark III round and fired a shorter, lighter bullet. Garron - what do you need to know about the M-H? Try to get Temple/Skennerton's three volume set about the Martini-Henry from the library. I have copies so PM me if you have any specific questions. REgards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 25 March , 2011 Share Posted 25 March , 2011 Thats an interesting looking cartridge TonyE - have you got any more on the manufacturing process involved with those.? And what would be the date range for that particular style of cartridge being in use with the M-H rifle.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 25 March , 2011 Share Posted 25 March , 2011 As I mentioned, that is the standard cartridge that was used for the greater part of the life of the M-H. The Mark I version had been introduced with the rifle in 1871 and they did not use a conventional drawn brass case until the very end, introduced in July 1885. Even so, they were still making the rolled case well into the late 1880s, the last substantial quantity I can find in the Woolwich production records is 45 million in Financial Year 1889/90. The case was made (mainly by young boys) by rolling brass sheet around a mandrel and then rivetting it to the iron base disc by means of the copper cap unit. This was the case designed by Col. Boxer. The method was used for other calibres including the Mark I .303 blank. The last rounds of this type that I have were made in India in 1929-30, although these were cordite loaded rather than black powder. I would have though you would have come across these before, the method was widely used in this and other calibres in Australia, e.g. the .45 New South Wales police round. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 25 March , 2011 Share Posted 25 March , 2011 During the 1960s Interarms imported an enormous number of Martini-Henry rifles into the U.S. I worked for a few days at a gun store sorting them into condition categories -- very good, good, fair, poor -- until the owner of the company had second thoughts about having underage kids (his son's friends) working in his warehouse. Potential injuries and insurance were his main concerns, which were valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 25 March , 2011 Share Posted 25 March , 2011 S>S - Here is the drawing from the 1887 Treatise on Ammunition which shows the various components of the rolled case Martini round. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 25 March , 2011 Share Posted 25 March , 2011 The following is somewhat off topic; but may add a little. When I was in the Cadet Corps at school in 1945 (or thereabouts) we used Martini Henri carbines for drill and graduated to SMLEs in the JTC when we were a bit taller. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 25 March , 2011 Share Posted 25 March , 2011 Of course, I am a mere child, but in the late 1950s we also had .303 Martini Enfield carbines still in the school armoury. They were not used as we had about 500 SMLEs but they had probably been there since at least the days of the WWI OTC. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croesgadwr Posted 25 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 25 March , 2011 It is only fair to explain to you the amusement shown in the previous posts. You used the description "bullet heads" in the title to your post and I am well known for my pedantry in correcting this term, since the head of a cartridge is the other end where the primer is. However, my irritation is aimed at those who should know better, dealers and collectors etc., and not those who post an honest question like yourself. REgards TonyE Thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply to my question. I'm in awe of the knowledge of you guy's... I now know more than enough about my "bullet heads" (sorry TonyE!!) Furthermore, I can now tell the difference between a "bullets head, and its ****"... I worked on the Sting Ray torpedo project for more than six years (production testing the fully built weapon), now this weapon certainly does have a head at the front...and the explosive bit is in the nose!! Just an aside...would the commonly used term "Knocking it on the head" refer in anyway to the firing of a shot... (i.e. knocking it on the head meaning 'finishing a task' etc). Seriously guy's, thanks again for all the info. Best regards, Croesgadwr (Crusader) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 25 March , 2011 Share Posted 25 March , 2011 S>S - Here is the drawing from the 1887 Treatise on Ammunition which shows the various components of the rolled case Martini round. Regards TonyE I'd always thought those old guys were dead good draughtsmen till I noticed that Figs. 4/5, 6/7 and 15/16 appear to be in first-angle projection, whilst Figs. 10/11 appear to be in third-angle. Rather unclear, I thought... Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 25 March , 2011 Share Posted 25 March , 2011 OOOh, unkind Mik! I am not sure when the modern conventions of drawing came into being? Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 26 March , 2011 Share Posted 26 March , 2011 S>S - Here is the drawing from the 1887 Treatise on Ammunition which shows the various components of the rolled case Martini round. Regards TonyE Good stuff Tony E, thanks for all the interesting info. I'm afraid the M-H was a little before my time.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 26 March , 2011 Share Posted 26 March , 2011 OOOh, unkind Mik! I am not sure when the modern conventions of drawing came into being? Regards TonyE Ah, but you set such a standard that some of us have to score points where we can... BS 308 seems only to date back as far as 1927. Allegedly it used 3rd angle projection, which seems a little odd since in my days as a draughtsman that was also known as 'American' projection. Though I have to admit, it makes better intuitive sense than 1st angle. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asanewt Posted 26 March , 2011 Share Posted 26 March , 2011 Hello TonyE Probably right with regard to Yeomanry arms possibly the range was used by later troops. Just by the way we have a truly marvellous photo' of theYeomen armed and dangerous outside the local drill hall with Taid (Grandad) ful centre. Will pop to my brother's house with a magnifying glass to check the weapons some of which are bicycle mounted. I'm sure the photo' is of general interest but haven't mastered posting pics yet. I could PM on for you if you are interested Just remembered the local rifle club had an excellent range at the limestone quarry on the edge of town 'till it was coveted by police for armed response training which it is today. Jules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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