What uniforms are these?

[taffy2]

Good evening all.

A newbe to this wonderful site, fasinated by the topic's and expertise of its members.

I have recently obtained a photo of my grand father ( 2nd row 2nd left) who was in the Army Service Corps as a driver, then posted to 24th batt, Welsh regiment, also as a driver.The photo shows him wearing a Fez, so i assume it would be 1917 ish, when i know his battalion was posted to Egypt.

The photo shows a mixture of uniforms in the men in this photo, could you help me find out what uniforms they are? and how come there altogether in one photo.?

Geoff

[centurion]

A real mixture that appears to contain an Italian and a Russian. There is an French Adrian helmet but a lot of countries' forces wore those. Likewise there is a kepi.There is a beret of the type worn by French Alpine troops and also a Scots bonnet. British uniforms and service caps and the bandoleer worn by mounted men and drivers.

[FROGSMILE]

Good evening all.

A newbe to this wonderful site, fasinated by the topic's and expertise of its members.

I have recently obtained a photo of my grand father ( 2nd row 2nd left) who was in the Army Service Corps as a driver, then posted to 24th batt, Welsh regiment, also as a driver.The photo shows him wearing a Fez, so i assume it would be 1917 ish, when i know his battalion was posted to Egypt.

The photo shows a mixture of uniforms in the men in this photo, could you help me find out what uniforms they are? and how come there altogether in one photo.?

Geoff

HelloGeoff, what other indications apart from the Fez do you have that the photo was in Egypt? It it takes post card form are there any other markings on it?

I can see at least 4 British soldiers in the photo (indicated by SD jackets and 1903 pattern leather bandoliers) and a wide variety of head dress. There 'appears' to be Russians, French, Serbians, Greeks and perhaps even Italians, so I am wondering it is has anything to do with the Salonika Front. The Macedonian campaign involved almost all the allied Nations against Bulgarian and some German Forces and this photo looks like it might well be connected. In the Spring of 1917 a so-called Armee d' Orient had been reinforced to the point that it had 24 divisions: 6 French, 6 Serbian, 7 British, 1 Italian, 3 Greek and 2 Russian brigades. All those Nations appear to be represented in the photo.

The Bulgarians were a fierce and underestimated opponent who gave the allied forces a good run for their money. Some horrendous hand-to-hand actions took place and it is interesting to read of the British soldiers respect for their enemies in that campaign.

In the enclosed photo you can see the full range of Allied Nations in Macedonia. From left to right: a soldier from French Indochina, a Frenchman, a French Senegalese (in a fez!), an Englishman, a Russian, an Italian, a Serb, a Greek and an Indian.

British Divisions that fought in the campaign included 22nd, 26th, 27th, 28th and 60th. Perhaps you can see if your grandfather was attached to any of these formations.

[centurion]

HelloGeoff, what other indications apart from the Fez do you have that the photo was in Egypt? It it takes post card form are there any other markings on it?

I can see at least 4 British soldiers in the photo (indicated by SD jackets and 1903 pattern leather bandoliers) and a wide variety of head dress. There 'appears' to be Russians, French, Serbians, Greeks and perhaps even Italians, so I am wondering it is has anything to do with the Salonika Front. The Macedonian campaign involved almost all the allied Nations against Bulgarian and some German Forces and this photo looks like it might well be connected. In the Spring of 1917 a so-called Armee d' Orient had been reinforced to the point that it had 24 divisions: 6 French, 6 Serbian, 7 British, 1 Italian, 3 Greek and 2 Russian brigades. All those Nations appear to be represented in the photo.

The Bulgarians were a fierce and underestimated opponent who gave the allied forces a good run for their money. Some horrendous hand-to-hand actions took place and it is interesting to read of the British soldiers respect for their enemies in that campaign.

So where were the Turks in Salonika?

[Cossack Wolf]

I would agree with FROGSMILE on this one, It looks very similar to mixed contingent photos I have seen taken in Salonika - the fez is probably a bit of a red herring as it's not a Turk wearing it

Also, apart from the Russian Legion in France & the troops on the Persian front, Russian troops were only sent to Salonika.

Regards....Andy

[taffy2]

Good morning all.

Still trying to get the hang of this site, posted on quick reply and lost the post,

Thank you for all your replies.

Salonica? my mothers christian name was SUVLA born March 1916 ,could this be a clue .

My reasons for thinking the photo was taken in Eygpt, was that two of them are wearing Fez. (As you say maybe a red herring)

NA medal image details say.

Robert Barnett, born Cardiff.

Army Service Corps, Reg number T2/10271- driver

Welsh Regument , :: 61668 - driver.

Geoff

[centurion]

.

Salonica? my mothers christian name was SUVLA born March 1916 ,could this be a clue .

That's a Gallipoli name not Salonika

I don't think there are any Bulgarian or Turkish uniforms in the picture which eliminates the suggestion it has to do with POWs. The Russians who arrived in 1916 all wore the Russian Flat Cap - much like the British service cap so those in what look like Astrakhan or lambs wool winter hat are a puzzle. However part of a White Russian Army sought sanctuary in Salonika in 1919/20 when Allied troops were still there. There is another possibility - a number of Armenian Red Cross Doctors served in Salonika - a photo of one and his driver look very like two of the men in the photo.

[FROGSMILE]

Good morning all.

Still trying to get the hang of this site, posted on quick reply and lost the post,

Thank you for all your replies.

Salonica? my mothers christian name was SUVLA born March 1916 ,could this be a clue .

My reasons for thinking the photo was taken in Eygpt, was that two of them are wearing Fez. (As you say maybe a red herring)

NA medal image details say.

Robert Barnett, born Cardiff.

Army Service Corps, Reg number T2/10271- driver

Welsh Regument , :: 61668 - driver.

Geoff

Geoff, the Greeks had some troops in a Fez too and I think you will find it might be the hat from a Greek soldier that your grandfather is wearing. Interestingly in his 1811 journey to Cyprus, John Pinkerton (the Scottish detective) describes the fez, "a red cap turned up with fur", as "the proper Greek dress". It seems that the fez was introduced into the Balkans, initially during the Byzantine reign, and subsequently during the Ottoman period where various Slavs, mostly Bosniaks, started wearing the head-wear.

The Adrian style helmet was worn by French, Russian, Rumanian and Serbian troops. Russian officers have long worn the Astrakhan hat in cold weather uniforms. Incidentally, the Fez was also the standard head dress for French Senegalese troops as seen in the photo below.

Suvla is in Gallipoli and some of the troops that were there subsequently moved on to Salonika.

[centurion]

Geoff the Greeks had some troops in a Fez too

Have you any evidence for this?

Russian officers have long worn the Astrakhan hat in cold weather uniforms.

Only certain units - and why is no one else in winter dress?

Suvla is in Gallipoli and some of the troops that were there subsequently moved on to Salonika.

Better subsequently served in Macedonia. They would have gone there vis Egypt

[centurion]

Russian troops in Salonika

[centurion]

The fez was only worn by the Greek Evzones in full dress ceremonial order (complete with skirt and pom poms on the shoes). This uniform was invented during the Napoleonic wars by a British diplomatic official given the task of raising Greek units to guard British bases in the the Ionian islands. Getting a fez off the Evzones would be like borrowing a guardsman's bearskin.

[FROGSMILE]

Good morning all.

Still trying to get the hang of this site, posted on quick reply and lost the post,

Thank you for all your replies.

Salonica? my mothers christian name was SUVLA born March 1916 ,could this be a clue .

My reasons for thinking the photo was taken in Eygpt, was that two of them are wearing Fez. (As you say maybe a red herring)

NA medal image details say.

Robert Barnett, born Cardiff.

Army Service Corps, Reg number T2/10271- driver

Welsh Regument , :: 61668 - driver.

Geoff

If you can find what battalion of the Welsh Regt your grandfather served in it will be possible to cross reference it with a Brigade and Division and thus corroborate, one way or another, whether he was in the Macedonian Campaign. The 11th Batt Welsh Regt, for example, were in the 67th Bde of the 22nd Div (who were in Macedonia 1915-1918) and it is not inconceivable that he served with the ASC in Gallipoli and/or Egypt before transferring to the Welsh Regt. As well as the 11th Welsh, the 1st Welsh (Regular Batt), 1/6th Welsh (Service Batt) and 23rd Welsh (Pioneer Batt) were all in the 28th Div, which also served in Macedonia from Nov 1915 until the 1918 Armistice.

[Cossack Wolf]

In regard to the Russian cap/atrakhan hat question - the astrakhan hat (papakha) is part of the regular equipment carried by ALL Russian troops, exactly the same as the greatcoats they are wearing rolled up over their shoulders in the picture posted of them in Salonika. They are pictured in both the peaked cap (furashka) & fur hat in photos I have seen taken in Salonika the same as they are pictured in both in france as well as the Adrian helmets too. For this parade photo they would of course be wearing the furashka as it was the parade cap with the fur hat packed in the kitbag behind. It is not classed just as winter dress.

[taffy2]

Morning All.

I was given another photo of him , with a scrap of paper, supposedly coming from the Welsh regiment museum , Brecon.

24th( Pembroke & Glamorgan yeomanry TF:) 2Feb 1917: formed in Eygpt from two dismounted yeomanry regiments. Pembroke/ Glamorgan preiously in 4th dismounted.

Posted to 231st brigade part of the 74th division. May 1918 to France landing at Marseilles 7th May.

11th Nov Ath,Belgium in the 231st brigade part of 74th division.

(Ive writen it exactly as writen)

What is the best way to upload a pic, as ive tried 3 times to upload anoher pic of him and it keeps telling me the pick is to large . though iVe reduced it down to 5x3in.

In this 2nd pic he appears to be wearing a T ? badge on this shoulder, As well as jodpers, spurs, crop and a white shoulder lanyard.left side.

[FROGSMILE]

Morning All.

I was given another photo of him , with a scrap of paper, supposedly coming from the Welsh regiment museum , Brecon.

24th( Pembroke & Glamorgan yeomanry TF:) 2Feb 1917: formed in Eygpt from two dismounted yeomanry regiments. Pembroke/ Glamorgan preiously in 4th dismounted.

Posted to 231st brigade part of the 74th division. May 1918 to France landing at Marseilles 7th May.

11th Nov Ath,Belgium in the 231st brigade part of 74th division.

(Ive writen it exactly as writen)

What is the best way to upload a pic, as ive tried 3 times to upload anoher pic of him and it keeps telling me the pick is to large . though iVe reduced it down to 5x3in.

In this 2nd pic he appears to be wearing a T ? badge on this shoulder, As well as jodpers, spurs, crop and a white shoulder lanyard.left side.

This helps to narrow things down enormously Geoff. The T means he was a soldier in a Territorial Force unit (part time as opposed to regular soldiers and generally with a remit to defend the home country until 1914). We know he was in the 24th Batt Welsh Regiment that was formed from dismounted Yeomanry, but we don't know when he joined them from the ASC.

Going back to your original photo, there does not seem any logic in a group that included Italians, Russians and French soldiers being in Egypt, so there is still the question of whether he spent some time in Macedonia in 1915-16, perhaps with the ASC (according to your records) before moving across to the yeomanry, or directly into 24th Welsh perhaps?

The 74th Div formed in Egypt in January 1917 from dismounted Yeomanry Regiments, which had converted to Infantry. Served in Palestine until May 1918 when the Division went to France. Served in France and Flanders until the Armistice, but who was he with when in the ASC? The picture that started your enquiry might well be from before Jan 1917 so we have a big gap to fill.

Here is what the Pembroke/Glamorgan yeomanry were doing (and where) before Jan 1917:

South Wales Mounted Brigade

1/1st Pembroke Yeomanry

1/1st Montgomeryshire Yeomanry

1/1st Glamorgan Yeomanry

Glamorgan Battery Royal Horse Artillery

The Brigade joined the 2nd Cavalry Division in September 1914 to replace the South Midland Brigade and was itself replaced in the Division by the 2/1st Eastern Mounted Brigade. In November 1915 the South Wales Mounted Brigade units were dismounted and moved to Egypt in March 1916, and were absorbed along with the Welsh Border Mounted Brigade into 4th Dismounted Brigade, which joined the Western Frontier Force. They would be re designated as the 231st Brigade, 74th (Yeomanry) Division.

It seems to me that we need to find out more about his activities with the ASC before he joined 24th Welsh Regt. Although the first British forces landed in Salonika in Oct 1915, the multi-national force that was referred to in relation to your photo, did not form until Spring 1917.

[taffy2]

Good evening.

This is a copy of the photo i was trying to up load this morning

He is on the right sitting on the box. Looks like a well used box judging by the spur marks on side of the box.

Geoff

[FROGSMILE]

Good evening.

This is a copy of the photo i was trying to up load this morning

He is on the right sitting on the box. Looks like a well used box judging by the spur marks on side of the box.

Geoff

Geoff, this confirms that he was a driver in the ASC in the early part of the war and then transferred later to 24 Batt Welsh Regt, probably to bolster infantry numbers, as by late 1917, early 1918, there was a shortage of infantry caused by both casualties and the retention of young infantrymen in the UK at the explicit instruction of the PM, Lloyd George. This led to the Army scouring other Arms (especially ASC, Cavalry, Yeomanry and some RA units) for men to reinforce depleted infantry battalions. I am not saying this is definitely how your grandfather came to transfer, but it is quite likely.

He is wearing SD with early pattern cap and ASC cap badge. Although the brass shoulder titles can be seen it is not possible to discern a letter 'T' above them. He has the whip, spurs and breeches of a man employed on the mounted duties of a driver. His cap has a cover (as does the other soldier's), but I cannot tell if it was coloured to indicate a particular branch/duty of the ASC, or whether it is oilskin and intended as a waterproof protection. Perhaps an ASC devotee can comment.

Given that the first photo you posted contains men of Nations that did not fight in Egypt, but did fight in Salonika/Macedonia, I am still of the view that whilst with the ASC he served there. Another clue is the name of his daughter 'Suvla', which surely cannot be a coincidence and it seems quite likely to me that he was an ASC driver in a Division that fought in Gallipoli before moving to Macedonia. He might then have been wounded or sick (and that is pure speculation) and after recuperation transferred to the infantry in Egypt, which was in the same operational theatre of war (the transfer might have been compulsory as some were). If you can trace any of his records, medal index card for details of unit etc, it might be possible to track down where he served and when he transferred. As a start point, do you know what company of the ASC he served in?

[taffy2]

Good morning all.

Sorry for not replying sooner, but i have been questioning my family in the UK of what they remember being told of him , He died in 1943.

Ive attached the full size photo of him with out editing.

As can be seen there appears another british soldier with a young lad in front of him.

I have scanned the photo and noticed that in the windows above the group are.

Curtain rails and what appears to be screening curtains attached.

Grandad has bandages on his fingers.

There also appears to be conduit pipe coming down the wall into an electrical switch box and a drain pipe along side of that ( right hand side of photo)

.So could this be a hospital???.

and is this why there are so many different uniforms, also on one of the russian men , he is wearing a medal, would that be normal?.

He was issued according to his medal card (that i have not seen) 2 medals . the Victory medal and the British war medal. No service/ pension records exist.

As for his service in the ASC.

My brother can remember in the late 40s early 50s finding a full set of cavelry gear in the anderson air raid shelter in grans garden, this included harnesses ,bits of uniform and a cavelry sword. He distintly rememebers the sword, as gran clipped him around the ear for attacking her apple tree with it, She told him to leave it alone as it was grandads gear.

This being so could he have been in the Glamorgan Yeomanry before being dismounted in 1915 as part of the South Wales mounted brigade, under orders of the 1st mounted division. Then being dismounted he was seconded into the ASC.

I have looked in the Long Long trail for ASC attached to the 1st mounted division , but cant find any trace of the ASC seving them or their company numbers.

He must have been in the UK in 1915 for my mother to have been conceved , she was born 7th march 1916, which would make it July 1915.( unles we have a skeleton in our cupboard, HO ******)

My mistake , in the second photo it is not a "T "on his shoulder . On enlarging the photo it looks like "A space "C

Thanking you lads for all your help

Geoff in sunny New Zealand

[Cossack Wolf]

Just to answer your question on the Russian medal, yep, it was normal practise for them to wear their awards in the field.

Regards...Andy

[FROGSMILE]

Good morning all.

Sorry for not replying sooner, but i have been questioning my family in the UK of what they remember being told of him , He died in 1943.

Ive attached the full size photo of him with out editing.

As can be seen there appears another british soldier with a young lad in front of him.

I have scanned the photo and noticed that in the windows above the group are.

Curtain rails and what appears to be screening curtains attached.

Grandad has bandages on his fingers.

There also appears to be conduit pipe coming down the wall into an electrical switch box and a drain pipe along side of that ( right hand side of photo)

.So could this be a hospital???.

and is this why there are so many different uniforms, also on one of the russian men , he is wearing a medal, would that be normal?.

He was issued according to his medal card (that i have not seen) 2 medals . the Victory medal and the British war medal. No service/ pension records exist.

As for his service in the ASC.

My brother can remember in the late 40s early 50s finding a full set of cavelry gear in the anderson air raid shelter in grans garden, this included harnesses ,bits of uniform and a cavelry sword. He distintly rememebers the sword, as gran clipped him around the ear for attacking her apple tree with it, She told him to leave it alone as it was grandads gear.

This being so could he have been in the Glamorgan Yeomanry before being dismounted in 1915 as part of the South Wales mounted brigade, under orders of the 1st mounted division. Then being dismounted he was seconded into the ASC.

I have looked in the Long Long trail for ASC attached to the 1st mounted division , but cant find any trace of the ASC seving them or their company numbers.

He must have been in the UK in 1915 for my mother to have been conceved , she was born 7th march 1916, which would make it July 1915.( unles we have a skeleton in our cupboard, HO ******)

My mistake , in the second photo it is not a "T "on his shoulder . On enlarging the photo it looks like "A space "C

Thanking you lads for all your help

Geoff in sunny New Zealand

From what you have just described there is the possibility I suppose that he was a pre-war Territorial in the Yeomanry, but then enlisted with, or transferred to the ASC, before returning to his old unit later in the war when it became a battalion of the Welsh Regiment. To my mind the key here is to find out more about his ASC service. The units are all listed here: http://www.1914-1918.net/asc.htm#mt

The building could be a hospital somewhere in Macedonia and he might have been a driver in a Field Ambulance. It would explain all the foreigners around him, although I would expect to see more of them in bandages and bath chairs (as well as British in hospital blues), so I am not sure they they are necessarily casualties recuperating from wounds.

It does seem pretty clear though where it is, as there was no other theatre of war where the Nations represented in your photo were cooperating in such a closely allied way.

From the Long Long Trail:

Assistance in finding records

"Men of the Army Service Corps are among the most difficult to research. This is mainly due to the meagre information given in their service and medal documents. You may value help from fourteeneighteen|research. Why not look us up? ".

http://www.fourteeneighteen.co.uk

[taffy2]

Good evening all.

Apologies for the long delay in replying.

It appears that he was in Salonika, i have been questioning the family and four letters have appeared. Though i have not received the copies yet. In one of these letters his father states that he has one son in Salonika and another captured in France and is a POW. So the saga continues.

Ive also been selected involuntary, ( i always remember the good saying of never volunteer for anything lad) to compile a Remembrance record of all those in my family who served in all wars and conflicts.

Geoff In a wet and windy NZ.

[Guest maria99]

robert barnett is also my grand father i like to be in touch geoff for more information he die before i was born thank you