timmynich_67 Posted 18 March , 2011 Share Posted 18 March , 2011 Hi folks. I've recently joined the forum whilst researching my Great Grandad, who was in the Machine Gun Corps from 1916 to 1918. He died of the Spanish 'flu in Italy, October 1918. I've just worked out that he was an artificer and was wondering if he'd have worn any special trade badge for this? Also, if anyone has any ideas or info about exactly what he'd have got up to as an artificer I'd be very interested to know. Thanks for your help, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 March , 2011 Share Posted 18 March , 2011 Hi folks. I've recently joined the forum whilst researching my Great Grandad, who was in the Machine Gun Corps from 1916 to 1918. He died of the Spanish 'flu in Italy, October 1918. I've just worked out that he was an artificer and was wondering if he'd have worn any special trade badge for this? Also, if anyone has any ideas or info about exactly what he'd have got up to as an artificer I'd be very interested to know. Thanks for your help, Tim At that time there was no overall technical Corps for the Army and, with the exception of infantry and cavalry units, who were established for AOC armourers, the other Arms such as RA, RE and RFC, trained and administered their own armourers and artificers. In all cases, however, the badge to mark out these specialists was the crossed hammer and pincers that is still used today. It was generally worn above chevrons and below crowns, according to the rank of the bearer. You can learn a lot about the gun, which was a relatively complicated piece of machinery with a range of potential causes for gun 'stoppages', at this site: http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/ and the MGC itself at this site: http://www.machinegu...%2001.04.08.pdf An artificer would have been responsible for the repair and maintenance of his units guns (Vickers or Hotchkiss) and as well as demanding spares from the supply chain (AOC), he was trained to make parts by hand where necessary. He was directly responsible to the commanding officer for maintaining the units establishment of guns in good working order. At unit level he was usually 'ranked' as a warrant officer second class (after 1915) and 'appointed' to the specialist role of artificer quartermaster sergeant (AQMS). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 19 March , 2011 Share Posted 19 March , 2011 Frogsmile, your post indicates that a man in almost any unit could be entitled to wear the badge (restricted, I believe,to REME in my day). Would that include infantry for example? It`s not a badge one often sees in photos. Unless someone out there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 March , 2011 Share Posted 19 March , 2011 Frogsmile, your post indicates that a man in almost any unit could be entitled to wear the badge (restricted, I believe,to REME in my day). Would that include infantry for example? It`s not a badge one often sees in photos. Unless someone out there..... No, not infantry. As I think I made clear the infantry and cavalry had armourers from the AOC who wore the same badge. Artificers in the RA, RE, AOC and RFC, also wore the badge (although the latter only until 1918) as described. The REME was (as you know) formed in 1941 and brought all these disparately cap badged technical tradesmen into one Corps where their activities (and careers) could be better managed. The badge is fairly old in origin and dates back to at least the dress regulations of 1900. It seems that among its earliest (and short-lived) uses was as a badge of appointment for RA Master Gunner First class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Fisher Posted 19 March , 2011 Share Posted 19 March , 2011 To add the information already provided, the Machine Gunner's Pocket Book (issued by the Machine Gun Training Centre) identifies the duties of the artificer in the front line as: Should overhaul every gun at frequent intervals, sending a report on repairs found necessary. Will arrange for the numbering and marking of emplacements, depots, etc. He would have been the specialist in the company and his knowledge of the handbooks on the Vickers MG, and other weapons in the Company, would have been extensive. Regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 March , 2011 Share Posted 19 March , 2011 No, not infantry. As I think I made clear the infantry and cavalry had armourers from the AOC who wore the same badge. Artificers in the RA, RE, AOC and RFC, also wore the badge (although the latter only until 1918) as described. Worn by infantry too, but infrequently seen. Attached photo is of 4766 (later 276722) L/Cpl Peter Joseph Leadon, 1/7th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, TF. Killed in action 23rd April 1917. Seen here earlier in the war complete with sporran and 'swinging six' Note the GM artificer badge above his stripe. Tocemma Thank you Tocemma, that is brilliant to see and a complete revelation to me. I have never seen an infantry badged 'armourer' (as this must be given his rank) before. I imagine he assisted the AOC armourer, but I do not think there was an established post for that function so it is extremely interesting. As is proved so often, never say never! I suppose one possibility is that he earned the badge elsewhere (e.g. AOC where the trade was trained) and then transferred, but that does not make sense unless he was reduced in rank. All AOC armourers, on the established strength of infantry battalions were (I seem to recall) Sergeants. The badge does not mean 'artificer' per se, it means technically qualified in one of a range of trades and the rank of the wearer and his position in a unit generally indicated what his specialization was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 March , 2011 Share Posted 19 March , 2011 Unknown artificer, Machine Gun Corps (Heavy Branch) The trade badge is visble just below his tank arm badge. Tocemma This too would be an armourer, there was a minimum rank of Staff Serjeant (in its old sense) for artificers, who usually worked their way up from mechanic/armourer or other technical trades (of which there were several), to artificer. The artificers course was quite long and technically arduous, it was not a given that every man passed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 19 March , 2011 Share Posted 19 March , 2011 A word of warning, though - soldiers sometimes wear badges they`re not actually entitled to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmynich_67 Posted 20 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2011 Thanks folks for your informed and helpful replies. My Great Grandad was a bit of an enigma as very little specific information about him survives, so it's nice to be able to build up a picture of his life. Frogsmile, would an artificer inthe MGC normally have been a Staff Sergeant too? He was a Private, according to his headstone and medal card. Any thoughts? Richard, your quotes from the Machine Gunner's Pocket Book ( which I hadn't heard of) are very enlightening. Arranging emplacements and depots seems quite a responsibility for a Private soldier. By emplacements do you think it means the actual gun emplacements used as firing positions, or some other "emplacement" relating to technical, or perhaps maintainance work? I'll have to get a copy of the Pocket Book! Also would he have been the only one in his company? Looking after 16 guns seems like a big job - do you have any thoughts on how this would have affected his front line service? Would he still have done his normal Machine Gunner tasks, presumably carrying ammunition with the other team members, or spent more time behind the lines doing maintainance work? Sorry, these questions are getting a bit involved, but you've got me thinking! Tocemma, the photos are great. Helps to get a bit of context with these things. The only image we have of my relative, was when he joined up with the 2 Borders before being transferred to the MGC, so just seeing the badges on a uniform is nice. Do you have any other pictures of MGC artificers, or know of anyone with a collection? You know where I'm going with this one... Thanks again everyone, much appreciated. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 March , 2011 Share Posted 20 March , 2011 regarding the badge, at least as old as 1869 when the RACD ledger approved a design featuring hammer and pincers for artificers RE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 March , 2011 Share Posted 20 March , 2011 Thanks folks for your informed and helpful replies. My Great Grandad was a bit of an enigma as very little specific information about him survives, so it's nice to be able to build up a picture of his life. Frogsmile, would an artificer inthe MGC normally have been a Staff Sergeant too? He was a Private, according to his headstone and medal card. Any thoughts? Richard, your quotes from the Machine Gunner's Pocket Book ( which I hadn't heard of) are very enlightening. Arranging emplacements and depots seems quite a responsibility for a Private soldier. By emplacements do you think it means the actual gun emplacements used as firing positions, or some other "emplacement" relating to technical, or perhaps maintainance work? I'll have to get a copy of the Pocket Book! Also would he have been the only one in his company? Looking after 16 guns seems like a big job - do you have any thoughts on how this would have affected his front line service? Would he still have done his normal Machine Gunner tasks, presumably carrying ammunition with the other team members, or spent more time behind the lines doing maintainance work? Sorry, these questions are getting a bit involved, but you've got me thinking! Tocemma, the photos are great. Helps to get a bit of context with these things. The only image we have of my relative, was when he joined up with the 2 Borders before being transferred to the MGC, so just seeing the badges on a uniform is nice. Do you have any other pictures of MGC artificers, or know of anyone with a collection? You know where I'm going with this one... Thanks again everyone, much appreciated. Tim Hello Tim, he could not have been an 'artificer' (as far as the army were concerned) in the rank of private soldier and would have been an 'armourer' working directly under the artificer, who was by regulation required to be a Staff Serjeant once qualified (that is a senior serjeant in the meaning of those times). That said there are occasionally odd happenings that defy regulation, as per the infantry badged armourer posted by tocemma, so one can never say never. It would, however, be extremely unusual and I think it is doubtful. Someone with access to establishment tables for MGC units would be able to say what the allocation of armourers and artificers was to each unit. With regard to handbooks take a look at the Vickers Machine Gun link I posted for you and when you explore you will see there is access to downloadable handbooks and manuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 March , 2011 Share Posted 20 March , 2011 regarding the badge, at least as old as 1869 when the RACD ledger approved a design featuring hammer and pincers for artificers RE. Thanks Grumpy, it's interesting to see how old it is as an authorized arm badge. I have sent you a couple of PMs now, are you ignoring me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Fisher Posted 20 March , 2011 Share Posted 20 March , 2011 Tim, FROGSMILE posted the link to my website previously. If you go to it, you will find copies of various manuals, including the Machine Gunner's Pocket Book (1917 and 1918 versions) and the various handbooks on the Vickers. They might be of interest. I believe his role would have been solely Artificer and not one of the gun numbers. The 1918 pocket book identifies that there were four artificers as part of Bn HQ and then 3 per company (a total of 16). Regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 March , 2011 Share Posted 20 March , 2011 Tim, FROGSMILE posted the link to my website previously. If you go to it, you will find copies of various manuals, including the Machine Gunner's Pocket Book (1917 and 1918 versions) and the various handbooks on the Vickers. They might be of interest. I believe his role would have been solely Artificer and not one of the gun numbers. The 1918 pocket book identifies that there were four artificers as part of Bn HQ and then 3 per company (a total of 16). Regards Richard Richard, just to be clear are you suggesting that private solders (as Tim's relative apparently was) could be qualified and employed as artificers rather than as armourers? Incidentally, I found these two manuals offered for sale and I imagine they would be interesting in the context of this thread: Handbook For Military Artificers prepared in the Ordnance College 1899. Each Tradesman or Artificer in the late Victorian Army would have passed through the Ordnance College to learn their skill in the branch of their chosen trade. During which they would have been issued with this Handbook. Each Trade is covered giving the contents & information of their course, a fold out plate illustrating every tool & item officially issued as part of their tool kit. With all tools in each plate drawn to the same scale, giving the comparison & specification for items issued, each plate having a detailed listing. With 198pp, 156 drawings in text, 23 A3 size pull out scale detailed plans of tools & equipment. Bound in maroon buckram cloth with gold leaf lettering on spine royal arms badge on cover. A4 size . Cost £30. 1070gms Instructions for Armourers (Government of India Army )1911 In the care & repair of small arms, bayonet, sword scabbards, machine guns, tripod mountings and bicycles .A Handbook in the care, repair and stripping of a whole range of equipment of this period. Covering items of the British & Indian Armies with marking of arms by Regiment & Corps for both. Subjects covered include Webley pistols, Martini-Enfield, Martini- Metford rifles & carbines with bayonet & scabbards, Gardner, Nordenfelt , Maxin & Parapet Machine Guns, sword bayonet, swords etc. A4 size, 182pp, 30 scale drawings of arms with their single parts & systems of which 24 plates are A3 size fold out plates. Many of which are true show true cross section engineering drawings/plans with all dimensions and detailed notes. Cost £30. 1070gms. It seems that the artificers (who were 'inspectors') and armourers (who were all 'sergeants') first came together in 1896, not that long before the 2nd Boer and Great Wars, viz: "Inspectors of Ordnance Machinery and Ordnance Artificers transferred to Army Ordnance Corps (AOC) from the Royal Artillery (RA) becoming the Armourer and Armament Branch of the AOC. Corps of Armourer-Sergeants also absorbed into Army Ordnance Corps". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Fisher Posted 20 March , 2011 Share Posted 20 March , 2011 Richard, just to be clear are you suggesting that private solders (as Tim's relative apparently was) could be qualified and employed as artificers rather than as armourers? Just citing what the Pocket Book says at the moment. It doesn't identify the ranks held but merely refers to all as Artificers and does not refer to armourers at all. I can't find any other references at the moment but will keep on looking. Regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 March , 2011 Share Posted 20 March , 2011 Just citing what the Pocket Book says at the moment. It doesn't identify the ranks held but merely refers to all as Artificers and does not refer to armourers at all. I can't find any other references at the moment but will keep on looking. Regards Richard Thanks Richard, what we need to see is a War Office establishment table for MG Coys and Battalions. I am sure someone will have one. I imagine that the MGC might well have had private soldiers employed as armourers because of the intensely mechanical nature of the unit's primary equipment. The RA units also had an establishment of technical appointments for precisely the same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 March , 2011 Share Posted 21 March , 2011 Thanks Grumpy, it's interesting to see how old it is as an authorized arm badge. I have sent you a couple of PMs now, are you ignoring me? Would I dare? No PM from you since mid-Feb in my box. Feel free to email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 March , 2011 Share Posted 21 March , 2011 Would I dare? No PM from you since mid-Feb in my box. Feel free to email. I have emailed you some days ago (16 Mar) to your aol.com address, but have received no reply and wondered if it went in your junk box. The PM was sent on the badge forum and I mentioned it in posts there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 March , 2011 Share Posted 21 March , 2011 I have emailed you some days ago (16 Mar) to your aol.com address, but have received no reply and wondered if it went in your junk box. The PM was sent on the badge forum and I mentioned it in posts there too. There is something weird with my comms at the moment. Will go back through both sources. meanwhile, apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 March , 2011 Share Posted 22 March , 2011 There is something weird with my comms at the moment. Will go back through both sources. meanwhile, apologies. Do you have any establishment tables for MGC units to establish what the detail for artificers and/or armourers was? P.S. I have tried another 'test' email to your aol.com address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 30 March Share Posted 30 March Just started researching this man. Clear picture of his badges. Ernest William Hurley. Originally 2306/8 RMLI and latterly 108071 RAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March Share Posted 30 March (edited) 3 hours ago, Raster Scanning said: Just started researching this man. Clear picture of his badges. Ernest William Hurley. Originally 2306/8 RMLI and latterly 108071 RAF. Since 2011 I have learned for sure that the MGC had its own devoted trade group of Armourers. It seems likely to me that he became an Armourer in the RFC too. It would’ve been a logical progression. Edited 30 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 30 March Share Posted 30 March 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: Since 2011 I have learned for sure that the MGC had its own devoted trade group of Armourers. It seems likely to me that he became an Armourer in the RFC too. It would’ve been a logical progression. His trade in the RFC is given as Fitter (Eng) and on transfer to RAF Fitter (A E) which in my day was Airframe/Engine. It might well be an all encompassing designation that included Armourer in those days, as like you say it is logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March Share Posted 30 March (edited) 2 hours ago, Raster Scanning said: His trade in the RFC is given as Fitter (Eng) and on transfer to RAF Fitter (A E) which in my day was Airframe/Engine. It might well be an all encompassing designation that included Armourer in those days, as like you say it is logical. I did wonder as the RFC’s administrative culture was very Army-oriented, and so many proficiency badges were universal, but I’ve never seen an RFC soldier with the artificers hammer and pincers badge. I suspect that you’re probably right about the AE, as the eventual adoption of MG forward firing between propellers led to the gun’s mechanics being closely associated with interruptor gears, so combining the two would’ve been a natural progression. An RFC expert will be able to confirm I imagine. Edited 30 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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