RHA cap bands prewar - what are they?

[battiscombe]

The attached photo shows some probably RHA (one individual was gunner known to have been an M Bty RHA Sgt in 1919, on photographic evidence), probably prewar, which shows men with cap bands similar to those used by officer cadets - but in this context presumably not. were such cap bands worn on exercise, or in other circumstances. any suggestions? thanks

[Piorun]

An officer-cadet's uniform was worn, as appropriate, without alteration at all times required. The white band wouldn't be removed just because it was an exercise. Antony

[battiscombe]

thanks. my point was that these are (to my mind) not officer cadets so i was wondering what the hat bands signify. In what other circumstances would RHA gunners, serjeants etc be wearing such a light-coloured hat band like this? My best guess this is 1914, maybe 1913? (the card photo is from a UK manufacturer I have only encountered in prewar photos). The (unnamed) individual in the middle with hands on hips was, I know from other photos, an RHA serjeant in H Bty RHA (not M, sorry) in Germany in 1919, with 5 overseas chevrons, so had been in France since 1914 and would never have been an officer cadet. another photo shows him, perhaps with the horse with white 'socks' in this photo at a UK tented camp, with what may be a layers badge or similar trade badge ..thanks..

[Piorun]

Then they might be instructors or referees in a war game exercise (although they tended to be officers). Antony

[FROGSMILE]

I believe the most common usage was to either mark out students on a training course, or to distinguish adversaries in war games (blue force, red force etc). I recall reading about such arrangements in various individuals recollections over the years, but it was also a common practice, albeit on more modern uniforms, in my own service. I seem to remember reading of a good example of this during large scale manoeuvres on Laffey's Plain around 1910 when aircraft were used to spy out movements of the 'enemy'. I think different coloured hat bands were used to identify the two forces (shown in newspaper photos), but I am not 100% positive.

[Piorun]

We used to do that too, F, although it was usually a coloured arm-band which was a lot cheaper and less bother than a cap band, especially with cap badge over-mounted. The big lad at attention is at least a Sergeant by the look of it and all four have an air of confidence about them that suggests instructors to me. Cheers, Antony

[FROGSMILE]

We used to do that too, F, although it was usually a coloured arm-band which was a lot cheaper and less bother than a cap band, especially with cap badge over-mounted. The big lad at attention is at least a Sergeant by the look of it and all four have an air of confidence about them that suggests instructors to me. Cheers, Antony

Courses of instruction could, did, and do, comprise mixed squads/syndicates of ranks, depending on the subject under study. Some indirect fire and machine gunning courses, for example, ranged from corporal up to captain. I am not saying that this is what is necessarily happening here though. I think it is more likely to be some kind of war game (i.e. training exercise) to practise procedures.

[Staffsyeoman]

Less likely to be instructors, I think, as Gunnery Instructors wore/wear a white cap cover as

opposed to a band?

I'm inclined to think that they are 'opposing force' in an exercise.

[pjjobson]

Coloured cap band were worn on exercise, as mentioned in an earlier post, to distinguish one side from the other. I would think, judging by the number of gunners involved in the photograph that this is the reason for the bands in this photo.

Phil

[Piorun]

With respect, lads, although you've posted on this before, we'll have to disagree on this. For the short duration of a war-game exercise, it is highly unlikely that troops would use fitted cap bands that required the removal and replacement of the regimental badge - twice. If they then put on tin hats, the whole operation would be pointless. What would other soldiers of, for example, a Scottish regiment do? Arm bands were the normal identification for war games. In my opinion, if these are not officer cadets, then they are gunnery instructors. Cheers, Antony

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/uploads/monthly_10_2010/post-7621-083891500%201286643857.jpg - officer cadets

[pjjobson]

As I am currently wprling on a book on RA unifoprms, I can categorically state they are not Gunnery instructors. They may be officer cadets, but I am yet to be convinced.

Phil

[FROGSMILE]

With respect, lads, although you've posted on this before, we'll have to disagree on this. For the short duration of a war-game exercise, it is highly unlikely that troops would use fitted cap bands that required the removal and replacement of the regimental badge - twice. If they then put on tin hats, the whole operation would be pointless. What would other soldiers of, for example, a Scottish regiment do? Arm bands were the normal identification for war games. In my opinion, if these are not officer cadets, then they are gunnery instructors. Cheers, Antony

http://1914-1918.inv...01286643857.jpg - officer cadets

Before the adoption of steel helmets (1916) khaki caps were worn in action and on manoeuvres. In the famous exercise of 1910 the opposing forces wore different coloured cap bands rather than arm bands. Arm bands were used at that time by the umpires (largely officers) who arbitrated over decisions of outcome.

[battiscombe]

thanks for those comments. I myself would think the exercise case might explain this - and to explain how a selection of RHA gunners and NCOs could be 'officer cadets' in a prewar context (as this surely must be?) would seem problematic. Hopefully I may be able to track down who this individual was (if anyone knows names of RHA Sgts in H Bty RHA in 1919, with 5 years overseas service and an MM, I would love to know!)

[Piorun]

As I am currently wprling on a book on RA unifoprms, I can categorically state they are not Gunnery instructors. They may be officer cadets, but I am yet to be convinced.

Phil

pace, Phil. I shall bow to your greater knowledge - not because you're writing a book but because I will assume that you've done more research than I (although the fact that we don't have a definitive answer . . . . . . ). Do let us know when you publish. Good luck. Cheers, Antony

[pjjobson]

Antony

No discredit on your comments was intended, and I hope none taken. I am happy in my own mind that they are exercise identification marks, But I am not willing to commit myself to that until I have done further research.

Phil

[Raster Scanning]

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rasterscanning/Scan1-1.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rasterscanning/Scan2.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rasterscanning/Scan-2.jpg

Fully agree, here are some further pictures.

B Coy, Bedfordshire Regiment acting as enemy hiding in Haystack, 1910 (including two officers)

Highland troops in Bedfordshire in 1914 during war games held in the villages north of Bedford.

Antony

No discredit on your comments was intended, and I hope none taken. I am happy in my own mind that they are exercise identification marks, But I am not willing to commit myself to that until I have done further research.

Phil

[battiscombe]

Excellent photos! and possibly a useful clue to it being a Home based RHA Bty participating in one of major prewar divisional exercises. Many thanks.

[David Porter]

Further evidence of the cap bands in this postcard recently sold on a well known auction site.

Captioned "Troops Making Tea in Mere, Wilts" it was posted on October 4, 1910.

[FROGSMILE]

Further evidence of the cap bands in this postcard recently sold on a well known auction site.

Captioned "Troops Making Tea in Mere, Wilts" it was posted on October 4, 1910.

The large scale exercise of 1910 seems to have been a seminal moment and both the King and C in C took the salute at a march past on Laffin's Plain. Apparently the fledgling RFC acquitted itself very well in providing timely intelligence of enemy movements, much to the chagrin of the cavalry, whose role it had traditionally been. Such was the scale of the exercise that just about every National and local newspaper did a spread and photographers were present in abundance. As a result there are a large number of images of scenes from that event. It was in many ways a watershed and showcased how some of the old Generals still thought that wars would be fought, with sweeping and fast moving manoeuvre, with horses still a key element. They had not reckoned on the effects of machine gun fire when coordinated with barbed wire and swift concentration of accurate and indirect artillery barrages. Unbeknown to them it was the end of an era.