HMS EXCELLENT - LOOK WHAT I HAVE FOUND

[Guest SHIREPRINCESS]

hI everyone i just wanted to share my find with you all. Last Sunday i found a trinket -it is actually from a hat/badge pin - withuot the bade - i cleaned it up a little to unveil that is has markings from the HMS EXCELLENT

on the back it has an anchor - a lion and the letter h.

This apparently states that it is 925 pure sterling silver, the lion means that is was made in surrey and it dates to the year 1907.

i am trying to post some photos here so please wish me luck.

i hope you all find this a fascinating piece.

[high wood]

Nice find, however it was made in Birmingham.

[Cossack Wolf]

Very nice piece!! Where did it turn up?

regards...Andy

[SiegeGunner]

HMS Excellent was the Navy's School of Gunnery at Whale Island, Portsmouth.

[Guest SHIREPRINCESS]

Hi again everyone. Oh i do apologise about the Surrey bit. still doing some investigation work on this piece.

At the front of our house and the persons house next door it has been overgrown for i dont know how long - anyway we were doing some gardening and it was in the dirt. i have cleaned it up - but also one of my other finds was a 1965 churchill big silver coin.

Please add any info that you find interesting about the HMS Excellent. It is unbelievable that i have in this small piece - a huge part of history.

just one question i have for you. on the left hand side of the badge - there is some other lettering cant quite make it out - could anybody enlighten me as to what that means

any help would be very much appreciated.

[Tom Morgan]

SP - The anchor is the Birmingham hallmark, as High Wood says. The lion indicates sterling silver content and the "b" is for the year 1901. The letters in a separate stamp will be the maker's mark. Your object looks like a watch-fob, or possibly a sporting medal. Either way, it seems to have had an inscription erased from the back.

Tom

[auchonvillerssomme]

Tom I thought the year looked more like h.

Mick

[auchonvillerssomme]

Can't quite make the maker mark, could be S Blanckensee & Sons Ltd.

[SiegeGunner]

The Latin motto "Si vis pacem, para bellum" means "If you wish for peace, prepare for war".

The letter looks like an 'h' to me.

[seaJane]

This looks like your Churchill coin - I think my mum bought my brothers and me one each...

http://www.24carat.co.uk/1965crownframe.html

[Cossack Wolf]

HMS Excellent was the Navy's School of Gunnery at Whale Island, Portsmouth.

That's why I asked where it was found - my Great-Grandather was an RMLI Musketry Instructor at HMS Excellent for many years!

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Blanckensee & Sons Ltd was founded in Bristol in 1826. In September 1863 it moved to Great Charles Street, Birmingham and in September 1863 where its first mark was entered. It was SB&S for the partnership of Solomon and Abraham Solomon Blanckensee, trading as Blanckensee & Son, jewellers. Later the company also had premises in Great Hampton Street and Regent Place and in Hatton Garden. During the 20th century it absorbed several other firms, including Nathan & Hayes and the Albion Chain Co. After the Second World War they mered with E Podolsky.

Dave

[Piorun]

Close examination shows it to be an "h" - being 1907. It's a pity that it's so dreadfully vandalised on the reverse - almost as if someone has deliberately erased the inscription. There appear to be at least two types of engraving. Small letters, almost stamped in appearance, seem to show "W Y I". Larger letters to the lower left appear to include an "H" and an "M". These may not be followed by an "S", which would seem to be redundant, given the clear i.d. on the obverse. Makers mark appears to be "SE(B?)FGS". I thought that Blankensee's mark was "SB&SLd" but, perhaps, this is "SB?SS". The "?" does not look like an ampersand (&) but perhaps Solomon had another son, hence the double "SS" (although it still looks like a "G" to me). Antony

[Tom Morgan]

I still think it's a 1901 'b' rather than a 1907 'h'. The 1907 'h' had a clear gap between the two horizontals which ought to be clearly visible in such a good, crisp stamp. I think I'm seeing the thin closure at the bottom of the 'b' rather than a clear gap as in the 'h'.

Tom

[SiegeGunner]

It's a pity that it's so dreadfully vandalised on the reverse - almost as if someone has deliberately erased the inscription. There appear to be at least two types of engraving. Small letters, almost stamped in appearance, seem to show "W Y I". Larger letters to the lower left appear to include an "H" and an "M". These may not be followed by an "S", which would seem to be redundant, given the clear i.d. on the obverse.

I think you're 'Keghsiding' again, Anthony. The residual inscription in large letters looks as if it could be the remains of WHALE ISLAND.

And re the hallmark, I have to beg to differ with Tom. It's an 'h'. Regardless of an apparent thin ligature at the bottom of the impression, the 'legs' of the letter are both straight — there's no curvature on the right-hand 'leg' as there would be on a 'b'.

[Piorun]

. I'll buy Whale Island, Mick - even though you put that Keghside "h" into my name (see how easy it is ). What do you make of the apparently stamped letters further up and to the right? Cheers, Antony

[aodhdubh]

Evidently, certain vessels associated with the school bore the name HMS Excellent, also...I assume this 1914 photograph is of the former HMS Drudge.

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205119282

 

I have a photograph of sailors at the Methodist chapel of the Royal Naval Dockyard Bermuda taken during some summer (by their dress) between 1914 and 1918 (date is established by a couple with visible HMS Cæsar cap tallies. One, however, has an HMS Excellent cap tally, for which I am seeking an explanation.

Edited 13 January by aodhdubh

[horatio2]

12 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

MS Excellent cap tally, for which I am seeking an explanation

Perhaps a recent arrival at Bermuda, drafted from EXCELLENT, who had not yet been issued with a CAESAR cap tally.

Edit:  CAESAR did not arrive at Bermuda on her first trans-Atlantic deployment until 20 June 1915, so a 1914 date for the image is not possible.

Edited 13 January by horatio2

[aodhdubh]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

Perhaps a recent arrival at Bermuda, drafted from EXCELLENT, who had not yet been issued with a CAESAR cap tally.

Edit:  CAESAR did not arrive at Bermuda on her first trans-Atlantic deployment until 20 June 1915, so a 1914 date for the image is not possible.

Thanks. I cannot imagine the gunboat in the above photograph (presumably the former HMS Drudge) was deployed to the North American area of operations as she looks like she might have trouble with heavy weather crossing to Bermuda or that is common in the area, and there would be little need for such a vessel there....I certainly have not found a record of her being there, yet. I wondered if personnel of or from the shore gunnery school would arrive in Bermuda still wearing the cap tally, but have not found an explanation. I'm sure I'm not misreading it. Perhaps training teams were sent by the school to train sailors on various stations?

Actually, perhaps Excellence detached personnel to HMS Cæsar...looking at Wikipedia's entry on HMS Cæsar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Caesar_(1896)): "At the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914, Caesar was brought back into full commission^[7] and transferred to the 7th Battle Squadron of the Channel Fleet; the squadron was charged with the defence of the English Channel. During this service she helped in transporting the Plymouth Marine Division from Plymouth to Ostend, Belgium, and covered the passage of the British Expeditionary Force from England to France in September 1914.^[6] In December 1914, Caesar was detached from the 7th Battle Squadron and transferred to Gibraltar to serve as guard ship and gunnery training ship there. In July 1915, she transferred to the North America and West Indies Station,^[7] serving as guard ship and gunnery training ship at the Royal Naval Dockyard in Bermuda^[6] and patrolling the Atlantic.^[7]"

Edited 13 January by aodhdubh

[horatio2]

HMS DRUDGE was only re-named HMS EXCELLENT from December 1916 to February 1918 while she as the commissioned 'nominal ship' for the Gunnery School, after which she reverted to DRUDGE. DRUDGE never deployed to Bermuda and certainly would not have done so while named EXCELLENT..

21 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Perhaps training teams were sent by the school to train sailors on various stations?

Most unlikely (never say never). Gunnery ratings were trained in UK schools for their up-coming sea drafts and ships deployed with a ship's company trained to man and operate the armament fitted. On board continuation training was the responsibility of the ship's Gunnery Officer and Gunnery Instructor(s).

[aodhdubh]

On 13/01/2024 at 16:46, horatio2 said:

HMS DRUDGE was only re-named HMS EXCELLENT from December 1916 to February 1918 while she as the commissioned 'nominal ship' for the Gunnery School, after which she reverted to DRUDGE. DRUDGE never deployed to Bermuda and certainly would not have done so while named EXCELLENT..

Most unlikely (never say never). Gunnery ratings were trained in UK schools for their up-coming sea drafts and ships deployed with a ship's company trained to man and operate the armament fitted. On board continuation training was the responsibility of the ship's Gunnery Officer and Gunnery Instructor(s).

Thanks. I assume as gunnery training ship, though, she may have required more qualified personnel for training crewmembers of all of the vessels based at Bermuda?

[horatio2]

DRUDGE was not a "gunnery training ship". As the EXCELLENT nominal ship (30 years old) her contribution to gunnery training would have been minimal Most training was conducted ashore at the Whale Island base. "Training crew members of all of the vessels based at Bermuda" was not her role.

Sorry to be repetitive but for clarity - The old gunboat formerly  HMS DRUDGE was the commissioned nominal ship (HMS EXCELLENT) that the men serving at Whale Island Gunnery School belonged to for purposes of the Naval Discipline Act.

[aodhdubh]

3 hours ago, horatio2 said:

DRUDGE was not a "gunnery training ship". As the EXCELLENT nominal ship (30 years old) her contribution to gunnery training would have been minimal Most training was conducted ashore at the Whale Island base. "Training crew members of all of the vessels based at Bermuda" was not her role.

Sorry to be repetitive but for clarity - The old gunboat formerly  HMS DRUDGE was the commissioned nominal ship (HMS EXCELLENT) that the men serving at Whale Island Gunnery School belonged to for purposes of the Naval Discipline Act.

Thanks...though I was referring to HMS Cæsar, not Drudge. Wikipedia records one of her roles on the North America and West Indies station, based at Bermuda, was gunnery training ship....the photograph appears to be of members of the crew of Cæsar, though for most of them their cap tallies are not able to be read (or they are marines). At least two or three are definitely wearing HMS Cæsar cap tallies, and just the one is wearing an HMS Excellent cap tally.

[horatio2]

21 hours ago, aodhdubh said:

I was referring to HMS Caesar, not Drudge.

Thanks for the clarification.

One only has to read the logs of HMS CAESAR to see that she was manned for the role of embarked gunnery training, a role which she carried out at Devonport in November 1914 and later at Gibraltar and Bermuda, the latter two bases having no established shore gunnery school. A search for the phrase "gunnery class" in her logs will deliver some 550 hits - roughly two classes per week on average.

https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-01-HMS_Caesar.htm

https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-01-HMS_Caesar2.htm

Dragging this topic back to its original subject of HMS EXCELLENT, I stick to my opinion that a random EXCELLENT cap tally at Bermuda does not infer an extra input draft of Whale Island ratings to support the gunnery training role. CAESAR's Scheme of Complement would have been constructed to provide the correct levels of expertise.

[aodhdubh]

4 hours ago, horatio2 said:

Thanks for the clarification.

One only has to read the logs of HMS CAESAR to see that she was manned for the role of embarked gunnery training, a role which she carried out at Devonport in November 1914 and later at Gibraltar and Bermuda, the latter two bases having no established shore gunnery school. A search for the phrase "gunnery class" in her logs will deliver some 550 hits - roughly two classes per week on average.

https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-01-HMS_Caesar.htm

https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-01-HMS_Caesar2.htm

Dragging this topic back to its original subject of HMS EXCELLENT, I stick to my opinion that a random EXCELLENT cap tally at Bermuda does not infer an extra input draft of Whale Island ratings to support the gunnery training role. CAESAR's Scheme of Complement would have been constructed to provide the correct levels of expertise.

Thanks. I'll certainly take your word for it. Just spotted this online.