HMS Invincible

[stephen p nunn]

Just been watching an interesting programme on the Miltary History Channel about Jutland and the search for the wreck of HMS Invincible and investigating the reason she exploded and sank. I was particularlly interested because one of my Brave Maldon (born) Lads went down on her:

Officer's Steward 2nd Class William Gwatkin BALDWIN (361749).

Before the war William was a clerk and he lived at 27 Wantz Road, Maldon.

He is on the Portsmouth Naval Memorial (21).

Regards.

SPN

Maldon

[Piorun]

[MikB]

Yes, the programme was quite good although lacking in some specifics - like the difference between a cordite fire in the magazine and a magazine explosion? Or were they being sloppy in terminology and meant to distiguish it from a shellroom explosion - which would indeed be a different affair?

I believe that Invincible was one of the more accurately-shooting British ships as well as one of the fastest-shooting, which was why German fire became concentrated on her. Some say that before her disaster she inficted the hits on SMS Lutzow that ultimately proved fatal to that ship.

Regards,

MikB

[Jim_Grundy]

That programme - if it was the same one as I'm thinking of - didn't seem to ask the question why the self-same RN practice in the handling of cordite didn't lead to the loss of the battleships, as opposed to the battlecruisers. Errors, sloppiness in handling are one thing but inadequate deck armour would appear to have been the deciding factor in the loss of Invincible, Indefatigable and Queen Mary.

[MikB]

That programme - if it was the same one as I'm thinking of - didn't seem to ask the question why the self-same RN practice in the handling of cordite didn't lead to the loss of the battleships, as opposed to the battlecruisers. Errors, sloppiness in handling are one thing but inadequate deck armour would appear to have been the deciding factor in the loss of Invincible, Indefatigable and Queen Mary.

I don't know if deck armour itself was the issue - ranges were not especially long, and belt and turret armour on the battlecruisers were much weaker than in battleships, so cordite magazines might have been penetrated directly, or flash generated in turret hits that passed down hoists. I don't know if any RN battleships received turret hits that generated flash.

Prompt and decisive action could sometimes save ships though, as it did with Lion at Jutland, and Seydlitz the previous year at Dogger Bank. Invincible's side armour was thin enough, and the wing turrets exposed enough, to make a direct shot to the magazine believable, and there'd be no chance then to limit the fire.

Regards,

MikB

[stephen p nunn]

Thanks chaps - fascinating. Intersting reference to HMS Queen Mary because I had another Brave Maldon Lad who went down with her:

Acting-Sub-Lieutenant Neville SEYMOUR.

As I am sure you know, all but 21 of her 1266 crew perished on the 31/5/1916.

Regards.

SPN

Maldon.

[Jesse]

One point to remember is that, early on, Jellicoe had pushed hard the concept of rapid fire as key to gaining the advantage for his ships in battle. This idea was especially embraced and pursued by Beatty and the "elite" Battle Cruiser force, to the point where even Jellicoe become concerned as to it's safety and wisdom. Not only was accuracy often quite poor as a result, but sloppy handling, stacking and piling of ammunition about the turrets and guns, as well as handling room doors left open to save time, made potential disaster only a heartbeat away. Even Dannreuther of INVINCIBLE, the only gunnery commander to survive the destroyed Jutland cruisers, admitted after the battle that his crews had employed these practices. Regulations stated that there were to be no more than eight charges in any turret, and it was later discovered that TIGER had gone into battle at Jutland with 20 rounds next to each gun. Rapid fire was a dangerous precept pursued by the top brass of the Royal Navy, with the gambler's analysis that it was worth the risk to un-nerve the enemy and gain the offensive advantage.

[rabbie]

These are photos of what I believe is called a grabendolch which my grandfather brought back, along with three machine gun bullets in his left arm, after the first day of the Somme.  Sadly my Dad didn't know how he got it (his father did not talk about the war), but my guess is that this is a souvenir piece made by stokers on the SMS Lutzow and sold to the crew - it's crude, but well made from good steel and copper.  One of the crew would have bought it and survived the subsequent sinking of the ship, as most of them did; was sent to France, but encountered my grandfather's Royal Scots Battalion (he was in MacRae's) sometime between Jutland and the Somme, when my grandfather acquired it ...

Stokers on the most recent HMS Invincible did the same in the 1980s, making a host of souvenirs - I know, because bizarrely I was a midshipman on her not long before the Falklands War, in a strange twist of history.