badjez Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 Please find attached photos of a bayonet brought to our WFA meeting for identification. The weapon belonged to a member's Grandfather, who had served in the Great War. Stamped onto the blade are the following marks '/82', '7'98' and what may be a crown over '34' over 'E'. Stamped onto the pommel is 'v' OVER '1.C.C.3.N.K.' over '100' and a seperate '21' which has been cancelled through. Any help appreciated as I cannot identify it from my limited knwledge of edged weapons. Its the twin quillons that stumps me. Many thanks, Stephen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjez Posted 13 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2011 Additional photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 It looks to be a shortened P1856/58/60 (all very similar) yataghan blade bayonet that has been modified to suit the Martini-Henry rifle or Artillery carbine. Note the top of the pommel has had a flat 'step' machined into it, and you should also find the muzzle ring has been bushed to 18mm to fit the new rifle. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 Additional photo Appears to be a cut-down 19th century British yataghan bayonet - have a look through of the UK section of the following (very picture heavy page, might take a little while!): http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/yataghan%20models.htm Edit - beaten in the editing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 I agree with S.S, it looks like a shortened Pattern '60 that has been bushed for the Martini-Henry or Martini-Enfield rifle, perhaps first for the former and then for the latter judging by the conversion/issue dates of 1882 and then July 1898. The Crown over "E" is the RSAF Enfield inspector's stamp. As for the unit marking, The "V" indicates a Volunteer unit and it seems to have been issued to the 1st C (?) Company, 3rd Battalion , The Norfolk Regiment, rack number 100. I don't know enough about the Volunteer organisation to offer better than that. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 This was an official modification done in the late Eighteen- Nineties. The Pattern 1860 yataghan (modified) had been adopted as a stopgap when trials with sword bayonets for the M.H. had failed to produce an acceptable pattern. The usual conversion for the M.H. rifle was a bushing for the muzzle ring and a flat milled on the pommel above the 'T' groove for the sword bar. When the L.M. and later the L.E. became the service rifle some of the sword bayonets were shortened for drill purposes so that the overall length when fixed on the M.H. approximated the service rifle with fixed P.1888. These appear to have been issued to Cadets and Volunteers. The points were rounded off and the edges blunted to minimize accidents. Later still, during the Great War some found their way into the hands of various Home Defence units and they restored the points and re-sharpened the edges. The scabbards were shortened to suit. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 14 March , 2011 Share Posted 14 March , 2011 The Pattern 1860 yataghan (modified) had been adopted as a stopgap when trials with sword bayonets for the M.H. had failed to produce an acceptable pattern. They did eventually settle on a suitable sword bayonet for the Martini-Henry and that was the Pattern 1887. But with the introduction of the new LM and LE rifles these were rapidly shipped off to India as the MH was by then considered to be reaching the point of obsolesence. The example shown below was made as a trial bayonet for the Enfield-Martini rifle (which was never introduced) but then later converted into a P1887 Mk.IV to suit the MH rifle, and used in India. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 14 March , 2011 Share Posted 14 March , 2011 They did eventually settle on a suitable sword bayonet for the Martini-Henry and that was the Pattern 1887. But with the introduction of the new LM and LE rifles these were rapidly shipped off to India as the MH was by then considered to be reaching the point of obsolesence. The example shown below was made as a trial bayonet for the Enfield-Martini rifle (which was never introduced) but then later converted into a P1887 Mk.IV to suit the MH rifle, and used in India. Cheers, S>S Well, not quite S/S. The Patt. 1886/87 series was intended for a new rifle still based on the Martini action - the Martini-Enfield in 0.402 in calibre which Enfield had found to be the best calibre for a black powder round. However the appearance of the French smokeless 8mm Lebel magazine rifle in one stroke rendered all other service rifles obsolete. Hence the Martini- Enfields were completed in the usual .450/577 calibre as the Mk IV 'Long Lever' and were disposed of as you describe and trials began on magazine rifles which eventually produced the Lee Metford. However this is a bit outside our remit. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 14 March , 2011 Share Posted 14 March , 2011 The trial rifle in 0.402 in calibre was referred to as the Enfield-Martini and the bayonet shown was one of the original P1886 trial bayonets. Note the letters EM on the ricasso that have been struck out in the conversion process which was undertaken in 1891. The Lee Metford rifle was already well in use when these bayonets were being converted to suit the M-H Mk.IV version. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 14 March , 2011 Share Posted 14 March , 2011 Yes, having just read my original notes on the bayonet (written in 1976!), too late as usual,I saw that I should have transposed it to Enfield- Martini. The P.1886 bayonet was made for the First Pattern Enfield-Martini, as you say - but this rifle was fitted with a quick loader and had the bayonet mounted beneath the barrel with a hole in the crossguard for the clearing rod. About 20,000 were produced so they were a little more than 'trial' weapons. A Second Pattern was introduced in 1887 and this dispensed with the quick loader and the bayonet fitting reverted to the side mounted bayonet bar. The bayonet itself was of somewhat heavier construction than the P.86 and had a muzzle guide and an auxiliary foresight on the crossguard. This was approved 13 May 1887 as the Pattern 1887 Mk 1. When the EM rifles were converted to 0.450 this bayonet had these features removed. In the meantime the P.1886 bayonets had been returned to store. On 1st June 1891 approval was given for these also to be converted by fitting new crossguards and they were designated Pattern 1887 Mk IV. My specimen also was marked with 'E. M.' struck through, along with the date of conversion - C'91. The scabbard was also stamped on the frog stud with a broad arrow and the letters E.M. However as I said none of these were intended for the .450 Martini Henry originally. Referring back to the original question I see from my notes that collectors called the shortened Patt. 1858 - 1860 yataghans, the Patt. 1895, but they never appeared in the List of Changes as an approved conversion. Last orders were completed for it in 1902 - 1903. I bought my specimen in July 1977 for £23! Cheers S.W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 14 March , 2011 Share Posted 14 March , 2011 Referring back to the original question I see from my notes that collectors called the shortened Patt. 1858 - 1860 yataghans, the Patt. 1895, but they never appeared in the List of Changes as an approved conversion. Those collectors, including Jansen who also shows that reference in his notebook, are incorrect. The Pattern 1895 was a converted M-H socket bayonet that was bushed to suit the new Martini-Enfield rifle in .303 calibre.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjez Posted 14 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2011 Dear all, Many thanks for solving this cunundrum. I've looked at the website: not enough pictures! Once I've re-read the thread a couple of times I might understand things better. If no-one objects I'll cut & paste the replies into one document for the member who owns the actual bayonet. Regards, Stephen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 15 March , 2011 Share Posted 15 March , 2011 Well S/S, I suppose we collectors could have called the relevant weapon 'Bayonet, Sword, for Patt. 1860 and 1861 Short Enfield Rifles, Converted for M.H. Rifle, Shortened for Drill Purposes' but 'Patt. 1895 Sword Bayonet' seems easier somehow, even if not official, and everyone would know to what you were referring. We should perhaps bear in mind that many of the designations now in use amongst collectors for mid and early Nineteenth Century weapons would not be recognised by either their makers or their users. - S.W. Ouch!! I've just been demoted to Subaltern from Serjeant- Major!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 March , 2011 Share Posted 16 March , 2011 Ouch!! I've just been demoted to Subaltern from Serjeant- Major!! I'm sure that's for using "incorrect terminology" which I've been told is considered a very serious offence.!! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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