geraint Posted 8 March , 2011 Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Three Denbighshire Yeoman and Hussars sabres belonging to the local council have the following stamped on their hilts. Any idea as to their meaning? "Denbigh" is obvious! Denbigh M7/13 Denbigh M3/29 Denbigh M3/9 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 8 March , 2011 Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Three Denbighshire Yeoman and Hussars sabres belonging to the local council have the following stamped on their hilts. Any idea as to their meaning? "Denbigh" is obvious! Denbigh M7/13 Denbigh M3/29 Denbigh M3/9 Thanks Hi Geraint, Possibly they were made in batches M1,M2,M3 etc and each sabre was numbered ie M1/1, M1/2, M1/3 etc, etc.? Of course with Denbigh preceeding each batch number. Sort of makes sense? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted 8 March , 2011 Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Is it possible that the marking represents the Troop/Squadron? I know some of yeomanry units had large number of troops of differing sizes particularly in the early days What age pattern are the sabres 1908 or something earlier. regards Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 8 March , 2011 Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Having had a quick look through "Swords of the British Army" by Brian Robson Denbighshire Hussars swords ( in 1912 ) would have been marked "DB" Are you certain that these are not militia weapons ? P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 8 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Robert - could be batch number, with issue number following. Good thinking! Greg - I wouldn't really know the age pattern - whether pre 1908. They are basic trooper sabres - certainly not ornate officer swords. PB - how could you tell the difference as to militia or not? I thought that Yeoman Hussars were the militia from 1770 onwards? Thanks folks Geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted 9 March , 2011 Share Posted 9 March , 2011 What I was wondering was if these sabres were the type used in the First World War or something older. The 1908 sword used by most cavalry inthe war is odd looking- the idea was that you used the point so the handle is at an angle to the blade- almost like a pistol grip. If they have a long very curved balde and very simple hilt they might even be the 1796. A rough approximation of age would give a sense of what types of military organisation was being used at the time of manufacture- issue which might help with markings. Do they have a manufacturers marking? Do you have a picture you could post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 9 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2011 Unfortunately Greg - I didn't have a camera with me, and I was with the curator looking for Great War objects within the county. They were curved, about 4' in length, with very simple hilt guards, and without scabbards. No further stamps or markings visible. I'll contact the curator requesting a photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 9 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 An interesting and fairly unusual type of sword you have there - I've been having a devil of a time trying to find an exact match, in order to give you an ID. The best description I can come up with is its a mid to late 18th century Infantry sword referred to as a "brass hilted Militia Hanger" (see similar pics below). These were never an official military pattern which helps explain the difficulty in finding a proper ID, and are apparently regarded as being a little scarce. The letter M found in the stamped markings most probably refers to Militia, and the numbers could be the troop number and then the weapon number. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Do the markings on the swords look anything similar to these shown below.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 10 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Thanks for the comparison SS - 'a hanger' makes sense. the stamping's very similar. If unofficial, would they have been cast at a local foundry and who paid for them? Would they have remained as issue weapons up to the Great War? The curator had them catalogued as 1914-18 weaponry; though he wasn't sure as to who catalogued them to that period, nor on which criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 They are unfortunately nowhere near being Great War issue weapons - as I said earlier think late 18th century or early 1800's at best and you'll be getting closer to the mark. When I said 'unofficial' I meant that they were not regular army issue items, like procured on WD contract. These were made for the Volunteer Yeomanry troops of the time. They would have been ordered from a reputable and well known manufacturer and probably paid for by the districts upper-class yeomanry organisational structure. Just because they are a Volunteer or Militia pattern does not mean they were not a quality article, just that they were not a standard pattern purchased on contract by the WD. Between you and me, this is way out of my normal area of operations, so please feel free to take further advice from others who will surely know more about these than me. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 I looked at this thread yesterday but didn't have time to comment. I'm no expert on swords but do get offered some and I do buy a few. My first impression was a navy hanger from between 1770 and about 1810. During that time Navies and Militias, plus bodies like the Customs and Exise all used hangers, some of which were German or Dutch. Handguards varied greatly. People leading boarding parties, including midshipmen would often use these functional undecorated swords, but would have a decorated sword or hanger for ceremonial duty. The National Maritime Museum has a collection of 600 swords and it's well worth looking at their website for casual identification use. http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/index.cfm/category/edgedweapons I've identiified a couple of my swords there in the last year. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Have just found this which looks relevant. 1751 seems to be a likely date! I think you need to tip off the curator. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=91164 John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Have just found this which looks relevant. 1751 seems to be a likely date! I think you need to tip off the curator. John Thats a good link John, and describes the markings very well. I think the 1751 may be the Pattern number, so maybe a bit more 'official' than I first thought. I have found a few more matches where they are referred to as the P1751 British hanger (as shown in the pics below) so I'd say thats what it is. A bit like the P1907 stamped on the SMLE bayonet, the pattern number has nothing to do with when the article in question was actually made, issued or even used. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 11 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Thanks for the links John and SS. Seems pretty certain to be a 1751 pattern British hangar. When were they finally displaced from the local militia's armouries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Hi Gaz That question is beyond me in certain knowledge, but I suspect they were probably used through to the 1860's, though the handguard style would have been quite a few years out of date by then. Perhaps S>S has a suitable text book? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Perhaps S>S has a suitable text book? I've got nuthin' .... (that's not unusual) ...but especially nothing on 18th century British swords and their usage.! And I suppose those that are up on these things are not likely to be frequenting the halls of the GWF on a regular basis either.? But considering the swords are marked to the Denbighshire Militia you are probably best to check with their unit history to get an idea of time frame. From this website linked HERE it states that the Denbighshire Hussars Imperial Yeomanry was first formed in 1794 so I would think thats a starting point. You might be best to point the curator in the direction of the book that is listed there, I'm sure it contains plenty of useful information on this particular unit. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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